Quality of Multi-IFR Training

[ghkj1023]

Hello All,

I just have question about Multi and Group 1 IFR training. So I narrowed down myself into two flight schools - one taught by young instructor ($400/hr dual) on Piper Seneca and another one taught by an ex-bush/airline pilot who has many hours of experience in IFR condition ($535/hr dual) on DA42.

The estimated hours for Multi-Engine is 15-20 hours and 20 hours for IFR. So we're talking about approximately $5500 price difference.

For people who has completed their Multi-IFR training, would you say it's worth the extra money and get lesson from an experience instructor? Do you think learning my multi-ifr on DA42 has an advantage or disadvantage? Or it is better just get the multi-IFR rating as cost efficient as possible? Money is an object to me and I'm willing to pay more if it is more beneficial to my overall career.

Just a side note - both schools are very reputable. The young instructor is a very talented pilot who represented my region on Webster Memorial Trophy Competition 2 years ago and he's a dedicated instructor as far as I know.

As for my progress, I am currently working on my CPL right now - finished my night rating and passed my written. I am working on my INRAT exam now and will begin my multi and ifr after I wrote the exam.

Thank you for your time on reading my questions. Hopefully I can get some insights from you guys.

[yhz41]

Plane doesnt matter but the experienced instructor will make a big difference.

[dialdriver]

As long as the young instructor is competent, I'd save the cash.

[digits_]

Is the experienced pilot also an experienced instructor?

[trey kule]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

That is absolutely ridiculous. 20 hours total multi time for both ratings including the two rides . And 20 hours on a sim.
The sim is a big part of it. Firstly you can do things like a plugged pitot, or static. Failed AI, Things that can be simulated in a proper simulator that either can not be done in the plane, or not well.

So back to money. 20 hours ME. Two flight tests. 20 hours sim. Ground school.
And don’t believe anyone, not even for a moment if they tell you doing it all in the plane is better.
If someone told me it was going to take 15-20 hours to get a multi rating, it would be the end of the conversation.

Just as a lifeline to your proposed instructors, maybe you misunderstood and they were actually telling you 15-20 hours for the multi and the IF rating. That would make perfect sense.

Look at the CARs as to what you really need to do to get both, sometimes a lot different from an instructor.

[Turboprops]

Do it on the plane with shittier avionics would be my advise.... (so i guess piper seneca?)
If your ifr training starts and ends with G1000+autopilot, you’ll have a hard time adjusting to 703/704 planes with traditional 6 pack + KLN GPS
Plus you’d save a bunch of cash too

[Blowin' In The Wind]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

That is absolutely ridiculous. 20 hours total multi time for both ratings including the two rides . And 20 hours on a sim.
The sim is a big part of it. Firstly you can do things like a plugged pitot, or static. Failed AI, Things that can be simulated in a proper simulator that either can not be done in the plane, or not well.

So back to money. 20 hours ME. Two flight tests. 20 hours sim. Ground school.
And don’t believe anyone, not even for a moment if they tell you doing it all in the plane is better.
If someone told me it was going to take 15-20 hours to get a multi rating, it would be the end of the conversation.

Just as a lifeline to your proposed instructors, maybe you misunderstood and they were actually telling you 15-20 hours for the multi and the IF rating. That would make perfect sense.

Look at the CARs as to what you really need to do to get both, sometimes a lot different from an instructor.

I second what trey said. I’ve (until recently for obvious reasons) been involved in multi-IFR training for a while and most people have no issue completing the multi in 7-10 hours. Also, his point about the sim can’t be overstated. The bulk of IFR training, the foundational stuff that really helps cement your knowledge and makes you a competent pilot, should happen in the sim with plenty of briefing and attention from the instructor. I’ve watched so many students get shafted by instructors who don’t put enough emphasis on that end of things and they’re doing a disservice to their students. Once everything is solid, which it should be if taught correctly and you maximize your available sim time, getting in the airplane is just to tie it all together.

[dialdriver]

The sim is where you learn, the airplane is where you practice.

[ghkj1023]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

That is absolutely ridiculous. 20 hours total multi time for both ratings including the two rides . And 20 hours on a sim.
The sim is a big part of it. Firstly you can do things like a plugged pitot, or static. Failed AI, Things that can be simulated in a proper simulator that either can not be done in the plane, or not well.

So back to money. 20 hours ME. Two flight tests. 20 hours sim. Ground school.
And don’t believe anyone, not even for a moment if they tell you doing it all in the plane is better.
If someone told me it was going to take 15-20 hours to get a multi rating, it would be the end of the conversation.

Just as a lifeline to your proposed instructors, maybe you misunderstood and they were actually telling you 15-20 hours for the multi and the IF rating. That would make perfect sense.

Look at the CARs as to what you really need to do to get both, sometimes a lot different from an instructor.

Thanks for your feedback Trey.

Yes - the 15-20 quoted hours is definitely on the high side although it does depends on the student, whether they're dedicated/prepared or not prior going to their lesson. Both flight schools have a good reputation on not overfly their students for hours. I'm aiming to get my MER with checkride at/under 15hrs. I actually did confirmed with both school - 15 -20 for MER and 20 for IFR, but this is a theoretically number.

Appreciate for pointing out the SIM section which I did overlooked. The hourly rate for the experienced instructor is $165 vs $65 for the young instructor.. So it would be another additional $2000 (20 hours sim for IFR) if I go with the DA42 instructor, ooof.

Personally, I don't think I "need" a highly experienced instructor to get the rating (passing the checkride). But it will help me become a better pilot and it "might" help my career down the road being more competent - problem is if I want to dish out an additional $7000 now.

[ghkj1023]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

That is absolutely ridiculous. 20 hours total multi time for both ratings including the two rides . And 20 hours on a sim.
The sim is a big part of it. Firstly you can do things like a plugged pitot, or static. Failed AI, Things that can be simulated in a proper simulator that either can not be done in the plane, or not well.

So back to money. 20 hours ME. Two flight tests. 20 hours sim. Ground school.
And don’t believe anyone, not even for a moment if they tell you doing it all in the plane is better.
If someone told me it was going to take 15-20 hours to get a multi rating, it would be the end of the conversation.

Just as a lifeline to your proposed instructors, maybe you misunderstood and they were actually telling you 15-20 hours for the multi and the IF rating. That would make perfect sense.

Look at the CARs as to what you really need to do to get both, sometimes a lot different from an instructor.

I second what trey said. I’ve (until recently for obvious reasons) been involved in multi-IFR training for a while and most people have no issue completing the multi in 7-10 hours. Also, his point about the sim can’t be overstated. The bulk of IFR training, the foundational stuff that really helps cement your knowledge and makes you a competent pilot, should happen in the sim with plenty of briefing and attention from the instructor. I’ve watched so many students get shafted by instructors who don’t put enough emphasis on that end of things and they’re doing a disservice to their students. Once everything is solid, which it should be if taught correctly and you maximize your available sim time, getting in the airplane is just to tie it all together.

Got it, thanks!

I will go talk to the flight schools and see what's their approach on SIM.

[ghkj1023]

Is the experienced pilot also an experienced instructor?

Yes, many hours of both instructing and flying in IFR condition, also has a good reputation. The instructor is also charging $165/hr.

[digits_]

Is the experienced pilot also an experienced instructor?

Yes, many hours of both instructing and flying in IFR condition, also has a good reputation. The instructor is also charging $165/hr.

That's good!
One of the advantages of an experienced instructor is that you would, theoretically, save a bit on the total cost as you would need less hours. However, if the school has policies in place that you would need at least 20 hours for a multi rating, the advantage of a more expensive instructor might evaporate. Best to find that out before committing to anything.

[zealer]

No, I don’t believe spending the extra money will get you any farther ahead. Save the cash. No one cares where the ticket came from as long as you have it.

Multi conversion, as others have said, is 7-10 hours. It really isn’t difficult or long. Very dedicated and proficient guys can get it in 4-5 hours. I’ve witnessed it several times.

IFR you need minimum 40 hours of instrument time, of which 20 hours in the sim can count toward it.
Thus that leaves you with mandatory 20 hours of instrument time in an aeroplane (hood or actual IMC).
Within this 20 hours of aeroplane instrument time is that which you accumulated from PPL, CPL and night rating (any time spent in the sim for any previous ratings/licenses also counts toward your limit of 20 sim instrument hours). Thus you will have already time in aeroplane and really only need 10-15, dependent on the exact breakdown of your instrument hours in previous training. Of course this is just to hit the minimum 40 hours, but why go over and spend extra if you don’t need to...

Review your logbook, see how much sim time you have left. Maximize the sim time - it is more useful and (bonus) cheaper. Then calculate how much actual plane time you need. Study hard, study smart and get it done in the minimum amount of time. Put the extra cash towards something else. Maybe the stock market...

[Scuderia]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

I too have heard from different instructors and APs that TC "likes to see" a certain number of hours for the multi rating. Do you know if this is written anywhere? Does it get fed to FTUs from their TC POC?

[digits_]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

I too have heard from different instructors and APs that TC "likes to see" a certain number of hours for the multi rating. Do you know if this is written anywhere? Does it get fed to FTUs from their TC POC?

If they want to see a number of hours, they should put it in the CARs.
Similar rumours are spread in other countries as well about a variety of subjects. Unless something is put on paper, such rumours can be ignored.

[Aviatard]

I too have heard from different instructors and APs that TC "likes to see" a certain number of hours for the multi rating. Do you know if this is written anywhere? Does it get fed to FTUs from their TC POC?

I've had people take anywhere from 4 to 19 hours to complete the rating over the last 15 years. I've never had a problem with the hours required for the rating. I am also an AP. There's no guidance on the number of required hours. You only need to pass the flight test.

[ayseven]

I am asking a sincere question: who needs 19 hours to pass a ME ride? I cannot remember how long mine took, but it had to be around 4 - 5, before diving into IFR.

[Bede]

Small, multi engined planes used to take about 5-7 hrs including the ride. Then TC wanted to see 10 hrs. Now you are getting quoted 15-20 hours for a multi?

I too have heard from different instructors and APs that TC "likes to see" a certain number of hours for the multi rating. Do you know if this is written anywhere? Does it get fed to FTUs from their TC POC?

That's nonsense. They absolutely cannot do that. You either meet the standard or you don't.

[Bede]

When people ask me questions like this, I always recommend that the student asks the prospective instructors what their average time of completion is. Time taken to complete a license/rating is primarily a function of the student's ability/effort, but the instructor has a lot to do with it. Some instructors simply aren't quick enough to get a sharp student done in 50/60 hrs.

[ayseven]

I had a guy like that in the States once. I know it can happen.