Stepping up to a anphib
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Stepping up to a anphib
Hey I’m new to the site but looking for advice on a amphibian plane. I would like to be able to fly my wife and kids to our cabin in northern Ontario. I’m a new pilot with 150hrs. What would a good step be? I was thinking a 185 anphib but concerned I would be to re restricted with weight?? Am I crazy to consider a 206 with the little experience I have? Or what would another good option of a anphib be? I have zero time on floats but planning tk get the endorsement this summer.
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matt foley
- Rank 3
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:42 pm
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
"Death trap" is a bit harsh. Now if you are referring to a back row passengers chance of self evacuation after the a/c flips over on the water during takeoff or landing with the flaps down then yes, I agree. Ugly! There are models of 206 with two front doors which makes life on floats much more pleasant but that's for you to research.
From a C185 or C206 perspective you'll have to provide more info if you want an informed opinion. Specifics to consider:
-Payload
-Pax number(Both "can" hold 6, neither will nor should on Amphibs)
-Lake conditions ie length, density altitude, clearway etc.
-Comfort level for PAX(206=wider/roomier, cargo doors etc)
I will throw my very vague opinion on the two. I have owned one but operated both enough to have formulated a view.
185 will provide more flying pleasure and likely keep you from getting into trouble more as its power to weight ratio is better(assuming both running the same 520 either IO or TCIO) and less airframe to drag around.
206 is a better family wagon. If using on wheels to haul kids, dog, wife and/or girlfriend around then it's hard to beat. Operating cost is similar to 185 but you get more airplane if that's your thing.
Both are manageable as a lower time pilot with proper training and more importantly ongoing supervision and support aka someone to call for advice anytime. Or, take the money amphibious floats will cost(purchase cost and annual=$$$$!!) and buy a car to drive you from nearest airport to your cabin and a boat to get you from dock to dock.
From a C185 or C206 perspective you'll have to provide more info if you want an informed opinion. Specifics to consider:
-Payload
-Pax number(Both "can" hold 6, neither will nor should on Amphibs)
-Lake conditions ie length, density altitude, clearway etc.
-Comfort level for PAX(206=wider/roomier, cargo doors etc)
I will throw my very vague opinion on the two. I have owned one but operated both enough to have formulated a view.
185 will provide more flying pleasure and likely keep you from getting into trouble more as its power to weight ratio is better(assuming both running the same 520 either IO or TCIO) and less airframe to drag around.
206 is a better family wagon. If using on wheels to haul kids, dog, wife and/or girlfriend around then it's hard to beat. Operating cost is similar to 185 but you get more airplane if that's your thing.
Both are manageable as a lower time pilot with proper training and more importantly ongoing supervision and support aka someone to call for advice anytime. Or, take the money amphibious floats will cost(purchase cost and annual=$$$$!!) and buy a car to drive you from nearest airport to your cabin and a boat to get you from dock to dock.
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
DJH I was in your spot 4 years ago. I bought my plane while I was still doing my ppl and went straight from my ppl to specific training on my plane. I was looking at the 185’s and 206’s but those options were awfully expensive. I ended up going the Lake Buccaneer route and haven’t looked back since.
Don’t get me wrong, flying boats take specific 25hrs of training and have some gotchas you have to be aware of, but with the proper training they are great capable planes. I have no idea what your mission is, and that should be what guides your decision. Talk to pilots who fly the planes you are looking at so you can get a sense of real world performance.
As far as having too few hours to be safe that was not my experience. The instructors I have used were happy that I hadn’t developed any bad habits that they had to fix.
Having said that, as others have said, float flying takes training, a good network of experienced pilots to lean on and the self discipline needed to conduct off airport landings.
I’d be happy to help out in any way I can, just send me a pm if you like to connect, I’m in the Toronto area.
Good luck!
Waterdog
Don’t get me wrong, flying boats take specific 25hrs of training and have some gotchas you have to be aware of, but with the proper training they are great capable planes. I have no idea what your mission is, and that should be what guides your decision. Talk to pilots who fly the planes you are looking at so you can get a sense of real world performance.
As far as having too few hours to be safe that was not my experience. The instructors I have used were happy that I hadn’t developed any bad habits that they had to fix.
Having said that, as others have said, float flying takes training, a good network of experienced pilots to lean on and the self discipline needed to conduct off airport landings.
I’d be happy to help out in any way I can, just send me a pm if you like to connect, I’m in the Toronto area.
Good luck!
Waterdog
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
How far from airport to cabin? How big are you, wife, kids? On straight floats a 185 or 206 will probably work. On amphibs, you may be looking at a Beaver unless your family is small. If you need to fly a long distance a Found Bushawk may be worth looking at.DJH wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:10 pm Hey I’m new to the site but looking for advice on a amphibian plane. I would like to be able to fly my wife and kids to our cabin in northern Ontario. I’m a new pilot with 150hrs. What would a good step be? I was thinking a 185 anphib but concerned I would be to re restricted with weight?? Am I crazy to consider a 206 with the little experience I have? Or what would another good option of a anphib be? I have zero time on floats but planning tk get the endorsement this summer.
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PanEuropean
- Rank 5
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
DJH:
I think that the first thing you need to do is find out what the actual payload of a 185 or 206 on amphibious floats is, then determine how much fuel you need to load to get from your home location to your cottage in Northern Ontario - keeping in mind that you don't have refuelling facilities at your cottage, which means that you will need to land there with sufficient fuel to depart and get to a refuelling facility with prudent reserve fuel on board.
I suspect that you will probably discover that the remaining payload available, after adding fuel, is far short of what you need to transport your family and food supplies to your cottage.
I'm not familiar with the Cessna products, but I am very familiar with the DHC-6 Twin Otter. A Twin Otter on standard wheel gear has a payload of about 5,500 pounds. A Twin Otter on amphibs has a payload of about 4,000 pounds. That's a heck of a difference, and it is made worse by the fact that the amphibian, due to the parasitic drag of the floats, has a significantly higher fuel consumption over the same distance than the landplane. The smaller single-engine Cessnas don't have much of a payload to begin with - once you add the weight of a set of amphibs, I think you will have a difficult time fitting 4 people, groceries, and adequate fuel into the aircraft.
My guess is that once you have finished doing all the math on payload / range (not to mention examining the difference in your insurance premium for an amphibian vs. a conventional landplane), Matt Foley's suggestion in post #3 to consider purchasing a landplane & a car to keep at a destination airport near your cottage will be much more attractive financially than you buying an amphibian.
You could probably accomplish your objective with a Cessna Caravan on amphibs, but that is one heck of an expensive purchase. A Beaver would also probably let you get the job done, but I don't think an amphib Beaver is a good fit for a new (150 hour) pilot.
Michael
I think that the first thing you need to do is find out what the actual payload of a 185 or 206 on amphibious floats is, then determine how much fuel you need to load to get from your home location to your cottage in Northern Ontario - keeping in mind that you don't have refuelling facilities at your cottage, which means that you will need to land there with sufficient fuel to depart and get to a refuelling facility with prudent reserve fuel on board.
I suspect that you will probably discover that the remaining payload available, after adding fuel, is far short of what you need to transport your family and food supplies to your cottage.
I'm not familiar with the Cessna products, but I am very familiar with the DHC-6 Twin Otter. A Twin Otter on standard wheel gear has a payload of about 5,500 pounds. A Twin Otter on amphibs has a payload of about 4,000 pounds. That's a heck of a difference, and it is made worse by the fact that the amphibian, due to the parasitic drag of the floats, has a significantly higher fuel consumption over the same distance than the landplane. The smaller single-engine Cessnas don't have much of a payload to begin with - once you add the weight of a set of amphibs, I think you will have a difficult time fitting 4 people, groceries, and adequate fuel into the aircraft.
My guess is that once you have finished doing all the math on payload / range (not to mention examining the difference in your insurance premium for an amphibian vs. a conventional landplane), Matt Foley's suggestion in post #3 to consider purchasing a landplane & a car to keep at a destination airport near your cottage will be much more attractive financially than you buying an amphibian.
You could probably accomplish your objective with a Cessna Caravan on amphibs, but that is one heck of an expensive purchase. A Beaver would also probably let you get the job done, but I don't think an amphib Beaver is a good fit for a new (150 hour) pilot.
Michael
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
I can't remember how many fatal accidents I have heard of, involving private pilots flying amphibs or floats. The moving runway concept, the unpredictable winds in lake valleys etc, contribute to big problems when you don't do it very often. Float flying is the most fun you can have in an airplane as far as I am concerned, but seriously dangerous for amateurs...
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
Aviation is always full of "can I ?" questions, and much more so with amphibs:
As yourself the following:
Can I buy insurance for it? Can I afford to buy it, and maintain it? Can I fly to the cabin and back without landing? Can I taxi back to the dock at the cabin, and offload a passenger, 'cause they're too much weight for conditions of the day? Can I assure that everyone gets out safely if the plane inverts in the water?
Perhaps you can be confident with those aspects, if so, continue to work toward your dream, many have, and found their way. But the questions are real life for amphib owner pilots, and you must stop and consider....
As yourself the following:
Can I buy insurance for it? Can I afford to buy it, and maintain it? Can I fly to the cabin and back without landing? Can I taxi back to the dock at the cabin, and offload a passenger, 'cause they're too much weight for conditions of the day? Can I assure that everyone gets out safely if the plane inverts in the water?
Perhaps you can be confident with those aspects, if so, continue to work toward your dream, many have, and found their way. But the questions are real life for amphib owner pilots, and you must stop and consider....
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
The best aircraft you can buy is a Cessna 206, much easier to fly than a C185, best to start on wheels first before moving up to the amphibian configuration,
Don't let your wife talk you out of buying an airplane, 
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
Is always good advice.best to start on wheels first before moving up to the amphibian configuration,
However, some characteristics, cost, and insurability may make a C 206 a less ideal choice. Based upon discussions this year, I would be surprised to find insurance being offered at all to a new pilot on an amphibian. In my experience, the best way to become a safe floatplane or amphibian pilot is to fly the first hundred hours or so with very close mentoring. That doesn't mean another pilot on every flight, but it should mean understanding any mentoring advice which might be offered for ever flight. That's how I learned - flying with the group as a passenger first, then as pilot when suitable conditions presented themselves. Then solo, when my mentors knew that where I was going had good conditions at the other end. It was a hundred hours or so before it was "take the plane wherever you like".
If I had to send a newer pilot in an amphib, I'd select a 180/185 or 182 amphib before a 206 for them. They won't carry as much, but are more forgiving, and easier to handle in a number of way.
As for taking my family, I have never flown all of them at one time, I simply choose not to. I could have borrowed a 206 and taken them just to say I did, but I would rather say that I did not. Certainly, I have taken all of my family one by one over the years, and that was good enough. My wife's choice is to no longer fly in the amphib with me, and I accept that. Her calmly expressed reasoning was good enough for me. If your family is well suited to being passengers, then a number of two hour leg trips out and home will convince you. It takes a certain kind of patience to be a family passenger, and not all family members have that. You have to cater to the lowest common denominator. Then, you finally get everyone happy in the plane, and you're weathered in for a few days, or much worse, relent, and get home itis them back in poor conditions.
If you want to judge for sure, pay a commercial operator to fly you and your family to your destination a few times, just to see how it works for everyone. The bonus for your will be the pilot will have all kinds of pointers for you as you ride right seat...
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
I don't agree with Pilotdar, having over 10000 hours on aircraft the Cessna 206 is much easier to fly than any 180/185, I've trained pilots on 172, 180, 185 and 206 floatplanes in all weather conditions in northern Quebec and Ontario, when fully loaded the cessna 206 is by far an easier aircraft to fly, the older Cessna 180/185 aircraft are like driving a sports car, and can get out of hand very quickly, whereas the 206 is more stable in both take off and landings. And in flight.
Don't let your wife talk you out of buying an airplane,
Re: Stepping up to a anphib
Yes, I somewhat agree with this. I suppose it's a matter of whether you feel you'd like more agility at the expense of some stability. As for getting out of hand quickly, well, I suppose, but if you're going to let a 185 get out of hand, you're not going to be confident flying a 206 either. But, if you let the 185 get a little out of hand, it'll be easier to get back than the 206. What you lose one way, your gain the other.the older Cessna 180/185 aircraft are like driving a sports car, and can get out of hand very quickly, whereas the 206 is more stable in both take off and landings. And in flight.
All 180/182/185's have left and right cockpit doors, only expensive 206's do, and that is a factor in docking.
But, either, as amphibian, and in the remote operating environment, is a big step for a wheel plane pilot. Not that the step should not be taken, but it's big, and a few hours on top of a fresh float rating won't be enough to be safe....
