Which Aircraft For PPL and CPL Training?

[wannaflymore]

Hi everyone.
I have recently made the decision to start my PPL and probably go commercial later. My plan is to have my own aircraft and do my PPL and CPl and maybe just keep the airplane if I'm happy with it. I have a few questions for you guys as you probably know a lot more than I do.

1. Which aircraft do you think is better for training? I read and heard that Cessna is very forgiving to students and I would instinctively go towards a C172, but maybe I lack imagination... what do you think? Which criteria should I consider to make the right choice?
2. I live on Vancouver Island... anyone from there who would happen to know some aircraft for sale? Where would you get the information?
3. A pilot friend of mine would check the aircraft with me since I don't have much experience. What should we consider first when checking a potential aircraft? What should raise the red flags?
4. I have a vague idea of the total maintenance cost for a year but I thought some private pilots here might be able to give me their numbers... maintenance, hangar or tie downs, insurance...
5. I found out recently that it is possible to do pilot training with a freelance instructor and I kinda like the idea, mostly because flight schools don't seem to do much training on personal aircraft anyway. What would be the pros and cons of the freelance?

That's all I can think of for now but I'll sure have more questions for you guys in the near future if that's ok. Thanks for your help.

[digits_]

Hi everyone.
I have recently made the decision to start my PPL and probably go commercial later. My plan is to have my own aircraft and do my PPL and CPl and maybe just keep the airplane if I'm happy with it. I have a few questions for you guys as you probably know a lot more than I do.

1. Which aircraft do you think is better for training? I read and heard that Cessna is very forgiving to students and I would instinctively go towards a C172, but maybe I lack imagination... what do you think? Which criteria should I consider to make the right choice?
2. I live on Vancouver Island... anyone from there who would happen to know some aircraft for sale? Where would you get the information?
3. A pilot friend of mine would check the aircraft with me since I don't have much experience. What should we consider first when checking a potential aircraft? What should raise the red flags?
4. I have a vague idea of the total maintenance cost for a year but I thought some private pilots here might be able to give me their numbers... maintenance, hangar or tie downs, insurance...
5. I found out recently that it is possible to do pilot training with a freelance instructor and I kinda like the idea, mostly because flight schools don't seem to do much training on personal aircraft anyway. What would be the pros and cons of the freelance?

That's all I can think of for now but I'll sure have more questions for you guys in the near future if that's ok. Thanks for your help.

Cool!

1) One as cheap as you can get, but that still has the necessary equipment for your training. Depending on your weight and your instructor's, a C150/C152 would probably do it.
2) Don't limit yourself to such a small aera. Look on https://barnstormers.com/ , https://www.trade-a-plane.com, kijiji, https://www.canadianplanetrade.ca/en/home/ . It's easiest to look for Canadian registered airplanes.
3) Bring a mechanic friend, not just a pilot friend. Settle on an airplane type and then look up the details for that particular airplane. Biggest danger is most likely a plane that doesn't fly a lot with a corroded airframe or crappy engine.
4) Without a specific airplane type in mind, you can probably budget a hangar for 300 CAD/month, insurance 2500/year, maintenance 4000/year. Can vary wildly
5) Probably a bit of a higher instructor cost, but you should make that up by getting -hopefully- more efficient instruction.

//edit: year changed to month in hangar cost

[Pilotdaddy]

1. Your typical trainer will either be a Cessna 152/172 or a Piper Cherokee of some sort. If you want to do all your checkrides in it, make sure it's spin rated. The Cherokee 140 is, while the 180 is not, for example. I believe the Cessna 152/172 are spin rated but don't quote me on that. If you want some useful load, I'd go with the Cherokee 140 or the Cessna 172. The Cessna 152 is perfect if you're purely using it for training and not really care about bringing people up with you once in a while.

2. I'm not from Vancouver but you could check out Kijiji, Facebook, Controller.com, Canadian Plane Trade, Barnstormers and Trade-a-plane.com

3. A pilot friend is definitely helpful, but do consider taking it for a pre-buy inspection with an AME.

4. I'm in a plane share (Cherokee 140) and our fixed costs run about 15-20k per year. This covers your annual, random snags, hangar, oil changes, insurance, etc. This figure will be highly variable depending on your location and the overall condition of your aircraft.

5. I went the freelance route and I don't have any complaints. Class 4 instructors can't work freelance so you probably would get a more experienced instructor if you go freelance. The cons of doing it this way is that 1) your network is probably not as strong as you aren't exposed to all the people at a proper school... and 2) if something breaks on your plane, it's your responsibility to fix it versus simply handing over the keys to the FTU if you went that route.

Best of luck!

[455tt]

A C172 would be perfect for you.

I recommend that you sign up for a membership with the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association (COPA), then you can access their Guide to purchasing an aircraft:

https://copanational.org/en/buying-an-aircraft/

COPA also has a monthly newsletter, filled with good information that you will learn much from.

I also recommend that if you find an aircraft that you are getting serious about purchasing, that you engage the services of a licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) for a pre-purchase inspection, as wisely recommended by Pilotdaddy. This inspection will be very important towards identifying any possible issues with the aircraft and can give you leverage in price negotiations.

[wannaflymore]

Thanks a lot guys for your help and answer, very much appreciated. I will look into all this and will probably get back to you with more questions.

[SkySailor]

Hi everyone.
I have recently made the decision to start my PPL and probably go commercial later. My plan is to have my own aircraft and do my PPL and CPl and maybe just keep the airplane if I'm happy with it. I have a few questions for you guys as you probably know a lot more than I do.

1. Which aircraft do you think is better for training? I read and heard that Cessna is very forgiving to students and I would instinctively go towards a C172, but maybe I lack imagination... what do you think? Which criteria should I consider to make the right choice?
2. I live on Vancouver Island... anyone from there who would happen to know some aircraft for sale? Where would you get the information?
3. A pilot friend of mine would check the aircraft with me since I don't have much experience. What should we consider first when checking a potential aircraft? What should raise the red flags?
4. I have a vague idea of the total maintenance cost for a year but I thought some private pilots here might be able to give me their numbers... maintenance, hangar or tie downs, insurance...
5. I found out recently that it is possible to do pilot training with a freelance instructor and I kinda like the idea, mostly because flight schools don't seem to do much training on personal aircraft anyway. What would be the pros and cons of the freelance?

That's all I can think of for now but I'll sure have more questions for you guys in the near future if that's ok. Thanks for your help.

Cool!

1) One as cheap as you can get, but that still has the necessary equipment for your training. Depending on your weight and your instructor's, a C150/C152 would probably do it.
2) Don't limit yourself to such a small aera. Look on https://barnstormers.com/ , https://www.trade-a-plane.com, kijiji, https://www.canadianplanetrade.ca/en/home/ . It's easiest to look for Canadian registered airplanes.
3) Bring a mechanic friend, not just a pilot friend. Settle on an airplane type and then look up the details for that particular airplane. Biggest danger is most likely a plane that doesn't fly a lot with a corroded airframe or crappy engine.
4) Without a specific airplane type in mind, you can probably budget a hangar for 300 CAD/year, insurance 2500/year, maintenance 4000/year. Can vary wildly
5) Probably a bit of a higher instructor cost, but you should make that up by getting -hopefully- more efficient instruction.

You've never owned a general aviation A/C, have you?

[SkySailor]

To the OP, listen and consider advice from owners. Especially owners who have done what you are considering. And AME's involved with general aviation. Ignore the rest. You want to make an informed decision based on solid advice.
Sole ownership will cost you thousands and thousands. Maybe tens of thousands. A partnership of equally motivated owners is the best way to spread out costs and risks. Unfortunately, it's tough to find enough people in one area to make it work.
And if you find a hangar for 300 bucks a year, grab it. Unlike some posters on here, I ain't ever seen a deal like that.

[digits_]

You've never owned a general aviation A/C, have you?

How about you correct what you think is wrong instead of making erroneous assumptions?

[photofly]

$300 per year seems a little light, for a private hangar. I know this is an expensive part of Canada but shared hangarage at CYTZ (there are no private hangars) is about $1500 per month for a piston single, and even at CYOO I think private T hangars are about $600 per month.

[digits_]

I didn't claim it was a private hangar, also wasn't aware the OP wanted a private hangar. I've put my plane in a shared hangar, in the back corner for 225/month in a GA friendly airport in the prairies. That seems to be the going rate here. Hangar wasn't heated, but who cares if you are on a budget. Still better than a tie down in the sun, snow and hail.

[photofly]

Ok.. but that's still not hangarage for $300 per year

[digits_]

Ok.. but that's still not hangarage for $300 per year

Oh god, that's what all the fuss is about? Yes, of course, 300/month. Jeesh.

[photofly]

Well I was thinking of moving to wherever in Canada it was $300/year...

[digits_]

Well I was thinking of moving to wherever in Canada it was $300/year...

You know photofly, just for you, I'd let you hangar your plane in my hangar for 300 / year

[photofly]

Oh, digits_, you're such a flirt.

[amaksr]

If you want to do all your checkrides in it, make sure it's spin rated. The Cherokee 140 is, while the 180 is not, for example.

Is it sufficient just to check all ADs on TC website for the type, and make sure none of them mentions spin-related placard?

[airway]

To the OP, listen and consider advice from owners. Especially owners who have done what you are considering. And AME's involved with general aviation. Ignore the rest. You want to make an informed decision based on solid advice.
Sole ownership will cost you thousands and thousands. Maybe tens of thousands. A partnership of equally motivated owners is the best way to spread out costs and risks. Unfortunately, it's tough to find enough people in one area to make it work.
And if you find a hangar for 300 bucks a year, grab it. Unlike some posters on here, I ain't ever seen a deal like that.

Ignore the rest? A little picky don't you think?
I'm sure a freelance instructor who does this kind of thing would have some good advice.
I've never owned a plane, but I have 2000 hours instructing on Cessna's. I think I could answer some questions.

[photofly]

If you want to do all your checkrides in it, make sure it's spin rated. The Cherokee 140 is, while the 180 is not, for example.

Is it sufficient just to check all ADs on TC website for the type, and make sure none of them mentions spin-related placard?

For spins? The Approved Flight Manual or POH will give a list of approved manoeuvres. Occasionally spins are prohibited by Airworthiness Directive, but that should be a temporary measure pending some modification or investigation.

Your research about different models should inform you if the model you want will fly the manoeuvres you need.

[SkySailor]

You've never owned a general aviation A/C, have you?

How about you correct what you think is wrong instead of making erroneous assumptions?

My erroneous assumption was based on some suspect, potentially erroneous numbers you threw out in your first post.

As for correcting what is wrong, I don't intend to drone on endlessly on an anonymous website where I feel apx 75 percent of ongoing discussions are similar to reality TV. Too many other distractions to take an interest in. However, to get this thread back on track, and respect the original posters question, I'll briefly post some points regarding A/C ownership drawn from my own experiences.

I have previously owned and operated 2 older Piper aircraft. I also owned 4 amateur built A/C that where in various stages of rebuilding. Those 4 aircraft never left the ground while I owned them, but storage and transport fees added up. All aircraft were solely owned by myself. Hence, my pockets were drained of thousands of dollars.

To the OP:

1. Try to set up a partnership. Share the costs and risks.
2. Your future plans are vague as to what happens after you get PPL. If you were just doing it for a PPL and aviation will be a hobby after that, do an RPP at a flying school and rent after you get your permit. Renting from a school is a pain in the ass, with all the irritants one has to go through before they let you blast off, but the financial benefit of ownership doesn't kick in unless a substantial amount of hours are flown yearly. One of the greatest joys of ownership is flying when you want, where you want, without asking "pretty please". Unfortunately, the price tag for this freedom is huge.
3. If your current job pays well, stay in it and build/buy an amateur built aircraft. It may be tough to find an instructor willing to get into it, and you won't be spin training it, but it'll be cheaper to operate and would be a good option for time building. Time building as in 500 hours for Medevac or 750 to write your A's. For something totally off the wall, build a Super Cub clone. Put an overhauled O-320 (minimum) or O-360 on the front. When it comes time to sell, your transaction will be measured in hours and days vs weeks and months for some tired ol' cherokee or Cessna.
4. After exhaustively researching your dream, and still hell bent on ownership, buy a mint 150/152. Spend 50 grand on it if you have to, but make sure it's mint. Mint because you're thinking re-sell. Not an ex-flying club high timer!! The big thing is the engine. IT MUST BE FLOWN REGULARLY!! If it's a pretty paint job owned by an ol' guy who polishes it every month, but hasn't flown it in three years, don't walk. RUN. Forget 4 seats. You pay more insurance for 'em. In the only four seater I owned, I can count on one hand (minus a couple of fingers) the occasions when I needed seat 3 and/or 4.

I'm barely scratching the surface of the good/bad aircraft ownership debate. Each persons tolerances are differant. You'll probably do 30 plus years in aviation, and still not be able to come up with a concrete answer. I swear this thing called aviation is an illness.
One thing's for certain. Should you go with ownership, or just spend money on licences/ratings, you will spent tens of thousands of dollars. Is it worth it?

One more thing-

If you go with the amateur built thing, try to find a folding wing design. My biggest expense, other than trying to replace a trashed engine, was easily storage/hangar costs. I never did find that 300/yr hangar........

[digits_]

4. After exhaustively researching your dream, and still hell bent on ownership, buy a mint 150/152. Spend 50 grand on it if you have to, but make sure it's mint. Mint because you're thinking re-sell. Not an ex-flying club high timer!! The big thing is the engine. IT MUST BE FLOWN REGULARLY!! If it's a pretty paint job owned by an ol' guy who polishes it every month, but hasn't flown it in three years, don't walk. RUN. Forget 4 seats. You pay more insurance for 'em.

A mint one will not stay mint unless you spend a lot of money on it to keep it in mint condition. You'll spend more than you would on an old club high timer.

Buying an old cheap one with faded paint -but safely maintained- will more or less keep its bottom dollar value when you sell it later on.

What you definitely shouldn't do is buy a mint one, let it deteriorate to the old faded state, and still expect to get mint value from it in a sale.