Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

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Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

I am considering renewing my expired Class III Flight Instructor Rating. It has been expired more than 24 months, so I know that I'll need to do the written exam which I'm studying for now, and flight test. I plan on visiting a few local FTU's in the next weeks to get some information, but I just had a few questions in the meantime for those who have gone through this process before.

My experience is:
- I Haven't flown a small piston engine aircraft in over 5 years (I currently fly the 737)
- I last instructed over 12 years ago
- I have about 6000 hours total time

1. If successful in passing the flight test to Class III standards, will I renew my Class III or do I start over again from a Class IV?

2. Would my previous 3 recommends and 3 students I sent solo to achieve my Class III count in the future towards upgrading to Class II, or again would I be starting over?

3. Is the fact that I have previously held a Flight Instructor Rating proof enough when submitting the paperwork to transport? For example, I don't have my PTR from when I initially did my rating showing that I completed the required ground and flight instruction.

4. For those who have gone through the process (especially those who fly commercially for their careers and haven't flown a small aircraft for a long time), how much flight time did you need back in a Cessna/Piper/Diamond before you felt comfortable to conduct the flight test?

5. I have heard of some FTU's trying to get prospective instructor renewals to essentially do the whole flight training portion over again to make themselves some extra money. What would be a realistic number of training flights with a Class I before they should recommend you for the flight test, assuming average performance?

Thanks for any advice you all can give!
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:40 am 1. If successful in passing the flight test to Class III standards, will I renew my Class III or do I start over again from a Class IV?
You'll be a Class III.
DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:40 am 2. Would my previous 3 recommends and 3 students I sent solo to achieve my Class III count in the future towards upgrading to Class II, or again would I be starting over?
Everything still counts. None of your experience has an expiry date.
DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:40 am 3. Is the fact that I have previously held a Flight Instructor Rating proof enough when submitting the paperwork to transport? For example, I don't have my PTR from when I initially did my rating showing that I completed the required ground and flight instruction.
The expired rating on your license is adequate.
DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:40 am 4. For those who have gone through the process (especially those who fly commercially for their careers and haven't flown a small aircraft for a long time), how much flight time did you need back in a Cessna/Piper/Diamond before you felt comfortable to conduct the flight test?
I had been out of the industry almost completely for 4 years (7 recreational flights over 4 years) in 2004 when I renewed my Class I. I did a single recurrent flight before the ride. I had the advantage of not needing a recommend though, so YMMV.
DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:40 am 5. I have heard of some FTU's trying to get prospective instructor renewals to essentially do the whole flight training portion over again to make themselves some extra money. What would be a realistic number of training flights with a Class I before they should recommend you for the flight test, assuming average performance?
If you're told you need the whole course again, walk away.

It's hard to say what would realistically be required. Your stick-and-rudder and procedural proficiency in small airplanes should come back very fast - 1 flight, maybe 2, definitely no more. However, the requirement to get your teaching and knowledge of the air exercises back can vary quite a bit. The good news is that most of what you need there can be self-taught on the ground -- and it should normally come back fairly quickly. So in terms of flight time, I'd expect the hours to be very low in most cases. There's always the possibility that I'm wrong and you're an exception. But if you've already established yourself as a Class III, I'd say that's unlikely.

In any case, if someone wants you to do the whole Class IV course over again, you're getting ripped off -- run away.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

But what if he does need to do the whole course again?

I doubt any Class 1 instructor is going to issue a flight test recommendation to an expired class 3 instructor who hasn't flown a light aircraft for five years without checking most, if no all, of the air exercises; and there are 24 of them. You won't get that done in two flights, even if everything is done well.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:29 pm But what if he does need to do the whole course again?
Sure, it's theoretically possible. But it's so unlikely that I think we can discount it. I've trained a lot of flight instructors. The vast majority of them were ready for the ride before the end of the course. Some of them took the whole requirement to get ready. A very tiny minority went over the requirement by one or two flights. These were all students starting from zero. None of them had previously taught in aviation, and most of them had never previously taught at all. Further, most of them had to spend time on the course re-learning things that they had been taught poorly during their PPL/CPL.

DHC-1 Jockey has already been through the instructor course successfully and has gotten enough experience for their first upgrade. Considering all of this, the idea that they will need to redo the entire course is almost certainly nonsense -- especially considering that they've continued flying in the interim (presumably with periodic formal demonstrations of proficiency since they're flying a 737).
photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:29 pm I doubt any Class 1 instructor is going to issue a flight test recommendation to an expired class 3 instructor who hasn't flown a light aircraft for five years without checking most, if no all, of the air exercises; and there are 24 of them. You won't get that done in two flights, even if everything is done well.
Ah, yes. The question, "How long will it take to get ready?" is not the same question as, "How long will it take to get a recommend?". Fair point.

So let's look at how long it ought to take if the Class I insists on seeing every single air exercise in the airplane.

24 applicable air exercises. Some of them take a while to get through, but some of them can be done quickly. I think it's fair to expect an average of 10 minutes for each one. That's 240 minutes. Let's round it up to 300 minutes = 5 hours. If you do this over 4 flights and tack on an extra 0.3 for ground time, you're at 6.2 hours. There's no need to add extra time for proficiency flying, because it can be done in parallel with the instructing.

Of course, I'm assuming here that everything goes well on the first attempt. Maybe it won't. If every single exercise has to be demoed by the Class I and then practiced twice by the candidate, we've basically tripled our time to ~19 hours. That's very worst-case and is still well short of the full instructor course.

The real question here is whether or not the Class I really needs to see every single air exercise demonstrated in the airplane. I get that there are exceptions, but I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, this is not required. What does the Class I need to see?
  1. A demonstration of stick-and-rudder and procedural proficiency,
  2. A demonstration of instructional proficiency wrt Familiarization-Demonstration (1 to 3 exercises),
  3. A demonstration of instructional proficiency wrt Demonstration Practice (1 to 3 exercises),
  4. A demonstration of instructional proficiency wrt Supervised Practice (1 to 3 exercises),
  5. A demonstration of instructional proficiency wrt Assessment (1 to 3 exercises), and
  6. A demonstration of required academic knowledge RE the air exercises (this can be taken care of on the ground).
It's fair to require the proficiency item to include every air exercise. But that can still be done in a single flight if it goes well.

If a candidate struggles to get through this, then talk about expanding it further with an awareness of where the strengths and weaknesses are. Insisting upfront that the whole course has to be redone is dishonest.

@DHC-1 Jockey, I'm on furlough and getting back into instructing part-time. If you can't find a local Class I to help you out and you don't mind traveling, PM me.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

Insisting upfront that the whole course has to be redone is dishonest.
No. A bait-and-switch by promising to finish the training and provide a recommend in 2 hours, then deliberately stretching it to 25, is dishonest. Offering the whole course up front is fine: you can take it, or leave it.

I'm really bored with the whole "dishonest FTU" meme on AvCanada. It's especially disappointing to have it propagated by two fomer/present instructors, who are usually exactly the people to whom malicious intent is imputed by others.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Thanks for the excellent responses and discussion, especially to Conflicting Traffic for the succinct answers to my questions.

I would think that myself, it would be in the range of 5-10 hours to feel totally comfortable with the aircraft and lessons to attempt the flight test, especially the hands and feet. Thousands of hours on autopilot up in the flight levels has probably made me rusty!

And Conflicting Traffic, thanks for the offer to assist with my training. I'm in SW Ontario and am fortunate to live about 20 minutes from the FTU where I did all of my flight training, from Fam Flight up to Multi-IFR and Instructor, so I'll try there first and see what their opinion is of the whole process. Where are you located?
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

If the OP came to me when I was still active instructing, I would sit down with him and go through the FIG, the FTM, part 4 of the CAR’s, and the POH of the airplane we are going to fly and a review of his lesson plans. There would be a lot of “what do you remember about X”. This would involve probably about an hour of ground brief time.

At that point I will have a pretty good idea of where he/she are, and I could tell them what I figured they would need for me to recommend them. This could involve pretty much a total do over of the rating, to a couple of randomly assigned PGI’s and 2 flights or something in between.

If I was to guess given the OP’s information I would say probably 5 hrs of ground brief and 5 hrs in the airplane would be a rough estimate.

Full disclosure, I think I am more demanding of instructor candidates than a lot of other Class1’s
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:29 pm But what if he does need to do the whole course again?

I doubt any Class 1 instructor is going to issue a flight test recommendation to an expired class 3 instructor who hasn't flown a light aircraft for five years without checking most, if no all, of the air exercises; and there are 24 of them. You won't get that done in two flights, even if everything is done well.
If someone can teach climbs, there's a good chance that they can teach descents. I don't need to see every. single. exercise. A representative selection should suffice. If I was recommending the renewal of a class 3 FI rating, I would have the candidate teach me turns, spins, precautionary approaches, and maybe partial panel instrument flying. If you can nail those exercises and explain the theory behind each, you'll be able to handle the rest of them.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

If someone has spent the last twelve years in an 737, wouldn't you want to check they can demonstrate a pretty good soft field landing, too?

You're not interested if they can make a power-off 180 that works out? No slow flight? Maybe they can, and maybe they need some practice, but wouldn't you want to check, before sending them off for a ride over your signature?
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Thanks BPF and Bede. You both have always been a good source of information.
photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:51 pm If someone has spent the last twelve years in an 737, wouldn't you want to check they can demonstrate a pretty good soft field landing, too?

You're not interested if they can make a power-off 180 that works out? No slow flight? Maybe they can, and maybe they need some practice, but wouldn't you want to check, before sending them off for a ride over your signature?
These were my initial concerns too, but a lot of these exercises could be done going to and from the practice area I presume.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

You are right that there is often an efficient way to pack exercises into a flight, but specifically, it’s hard to do a precision 180 landing on the way to anywhere!

Your estimate of 10 hours sounds reasonable, but give yourself the option of some extra time getting used to a small airplane again, perhaps.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Photo

What class of instructor rating do you hold ?
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:52 pm A bait-and-switch by promising to finish the training and provide a recommend in 2 hours, then deliberately stretching it to 25, is dishonest.
Yep. That's also dishonest.

And that's one reason why you have to have a conversation with your student that goes beyond a soundbite and provides some nuance. Something along the lines of: "This will probably take around x hours, but if you're more proficient than either of us expect, it might take as little as y hours. On the other hand, if we run into problems, it could take up to z hours. If I'm not ready to give you a recommend at x hours, we'll have another talk to develop a plan and a better estimate of time requirements. If I'm aware prior to x hours that I won't recommend you at x, I'll let you know as soon as I know."

Given the level of uncertainty, this is probably the best we can do. But I would expect x to be in the 5- to 10-hour range, and closer to 5 than 10.
photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:52 pm Offering the whole course up front is fine: you can take it, or leave it.
I guess that really depends on how you present it.

"You likely don't actually NEED 30 hours, but we're going to make you fly them anyway if you want the recommend, take it or leave it," is technically truthful and therefore not dishonest. Although you could reword that as, "We're going to leverage government regulations to force you to pay us for a service you don't actually need." So ... yes, dishonest.

Also, if the course is presented as, "You NEED 30 hours to get properly recurrent, so that's what we will provide," this is also dishonest. Of course, I'm making a big assumption here that the statement is made upon making an enquiry about the training and before any kind of assessment is done. This assumption is consistent with my understanding of the original post.
photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:52 pm I'm really bored with the whole "dishonest FTU" meme on AvCanada. It's especially disappointing to have it propagated by two fomer/present instructors, who are usually exactly the people to whom malicious intent is imputed by others.
Being bored doesn't change anything. The flight training industry lacks competition, has high turnover, and has a low dependence on repeat customers -- exactly the environment that promotes and rewards dishonesty. So we shouldn't be surprised to see it. It's fair comment to say that some of what we might take as dishonesty is in fact just poor proficiency and a lack of experience (there's the high turnover again). But there's no doubt that a non-negligible portion of the problem is dishonesty. Pretending it isn't there doesn't fix that.
Bede wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:39 pm If someone can teach climbs, there's a good chance that they can teach descents. I don't need to see every. single. exercise. A representative selection should suffice.
This.

An instructor renewal is about teaching. Teaching method doesn't need to vary from one exercise to another. With a sampling covered in flight, the specifics of each exercise can be briefed/coached/quizzed on the ground. If a serious deficiency shows up there, it can be flown to be sure the standard is met.
photofly wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:51 pm If someone has spent the last twelve years in an 737, wouldn't you want to check they can demonstrate a pretty good soft field landing, too?

You're not interested if they can make a power-off 180 that works out? No slow flight? Maybe they can, and maybe they need some practice, but wouldn't you want to check, before sending them off for a ride over your signature?
Yes. Hence the proficiency flying. How long do you really think this will take?
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

Conflicting Traffic wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:26 pm But there's no doubt that a non-negligible portion of the problem is dishonesty.
But there is doubt. Here's me doubting it. Further, non-negligible is a long way from a sizeable minority, or a majority. Yet you and the OP are already deep in conspiracy about the dishonest responses he hasn't received yet, because at this time he hasn't approached even a single FTU to ask about rating renewal. All he says is "I have heard of some FTU's trying ..." Come to that, purely because of what he wrote, I too have now "heard of" some FTU's trying, and so have you. It's all pretty threadbare, isn't it? And yet, so the meme is propagated.

It's up to an FTU or instructor what training they want to offer; if an FTU has enough candidates for Class IV ratings ab-initio to keep them busy (or even if not) they're under no obligation to work one-on-one with this person. That might make them inflexible, or inefficient, or lazy, or (god help us, on the internet) even "wrong", but you've no right to assume dishonesty.

The OP has received at least half a dozen licences and ratings from Transport Canada, and even delivered some. He's been part of the flight training industry. He's actually perfectly qualified to look up the regulations and answer his own questions about renewing his rating. I'd like to ask him how many dishonest FTU practices he saw first as a student, and then as an instructor. Because if a non-negligible portion of the industry in which he worked and to which he now wants to return is bent, he must surely have witnessed it.

In fact, we could put the same question to you: what of this "non-negligible" dishonesty have you personally witnessed, and what did you do about it?
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

photofly wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:44 am The OP has received at least half a dozen licences and ratings from Transport Canada, and even delivered some. He's been part of the flight training industry. He's actually perfectly qualified to look up the regulations and answer his own questions about renewing his rating. I'd like to ask him how many dishonest FTU practices he saw first as a student, and then as an instructor. Because if a non-negligible portion of the industry in which he worked and to which he now wants to return is bent, he must surely have witnessed it.
Trust me, I'm deep into the CARS, FTM, FIM, etc in preparation for the written exam, and I could not find any answers to my original questions. As my questions specifically relate to an expired rating, which Transport doesn't go into as much detail about, I'm thankful there's some on here who are more experienced at this process than I am who are providing excellent guidance.

As for dishonesty, maybe I'm a lucky one. I never felt pressured or taken advantage of by my instructors or FTU. And, I hope I never made any of my students feel that way either. I told every one of my students up front that I would one day be moving on to an commercial operation, especially once I started sending resumes out. I gave them the option whether to train with me, or go with one of the "lifers" who would certainly be there for all of their training. I'm proud to say that 100% of my potential students appreciated that honesty and chose to stick with me after their FAM flight.

I cancelled flights where the weather was dicey or wouldn't be conducive to learning, which in reality only hurt my own paycheque at the end of the day, but was beneficial to the student. And I never milked more training than they needed to to meet the standard just to make me an extra buck.

I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences with the flight training system, but there's still some good instructors (young and old) left out there.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:33 am As for dishonesty, maybe I'm a lucky one. I never felt pressured or taken advantage of by my instructors or FTU.
Maybe you're extremely lucky to have avoided this vast miasma of dishonesty and corruption endemic in FTUs.

Or maybe, just maybe, outright dishonesty is a tiny tiny problem (as it is likely to be in every human endeavour) which has been amplified by individuals on places like AvCanada until cries of "dishonest" and "rip-off" consume every single thread about flight training. Maybe.

And maybe you could find out what different FTU's approach to helping you renew your rating with an open mind, and without bandying about the "I heard..." - at least until you've actually heard.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

Well, I heard back from my local FTU who I did all my original training with, and the CFI says about 5 flights should be all that is required for him to be comfortable to recommend me for the flight test. He said he would expect the hands and feet flying to come back quickly, and then have me teach 3 or 4 lessons to get an understanding of my teaching level and abilities. If all goes well, he'll issue the recommend there.

Thanks again for all the advice and information!
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

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DHC-1 Jockey wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:39 am Well, I heard back from my local FTU who I did all my original training with, and the CFI says about 5 flights should be all that is required for him to be comfortable to recommend me for the flight test. He said he would expect the hands and feet flying to come back quickly, and then have me teach 3 or 4 lessons to get an understanding of my teaching level and abilities. If all goes well, he'll issue the recommend there.
Excellent news! I'm glad to hear it's working out for you.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

photofly wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:44 am Yet you and the OP are already deep in conspiracy about the dishonest responses he hasn't received yet, because at this time he hasn't approached even a single FTU to ask about rating renewal. All he says is "I have heard of some FTU's trying ..." Come to that, purely because of what he wrote, I too have now "heard of" some FTU's trying, and so have you. It's all pretty threadbare, isn't it? And yet, so the meme is propagated.
What conspiracy theory? Maybe you should re-read what I wrote. I used the word "if" quite appropriately. As in, "if x is happening, you should walk/run away". I'm pretty comfortable standing by that statement. Further, based on what I have seen first-hand in this industry, I consider it entirely plausible that someone would insist on a full repeat of the course for a recurrent.
photofly wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:44 am It's up to an FTU or instructor what training they want to offer; if an FTU has enough candidates for Class IV ratings ab-initio to keep them busy (or even if not) they're under no obligation to work one-on-one with this person. That might make them inflexible, or inefficient, or lazy, or (god help us, on the internet) even "wrong", but you've no right to assume dishonesty.
Sure. If a school/instructor says, "Sorry, we don't have the capacity, you'll have to go somewhere else," that's perfectly fair game. Or even, "Well, I've done a lot of instructor renewals lately, and I'm getting bored with them, so I 'm going to focus on night ratings for a while." That's fine too. Unfortunate for the customer, but totally reasonable.

But if (see,there's that word "if" again!) they want to try to push a renewal candidate into redoing the whole course, I don't need to assume dishonesty, I can conclude dishonesty based on behaviour.
photofly wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:44 am In fact, we could put the same question to you: what of this "non-negligible" dishonesty have you personally witnessed, and what did you do about it?
I think that's a fair question. So here's a little sampling:

On the instructor side, I've seen, first-hand, students getting milked either for hours in the logbook or for a larger paycheck (I suspect the logbook is the more prevalent motivation, but I don't have any data to back that up). On a couple of occasions, I was in supervisory roles and was able to put a stop to it. On other occasions, I was not in a position to fix it and was left to roll my eyes and not do anything about it.

On the company side, I've seen, first-hand, massively inflated claims about career trajectories and success rates of graduates. I've seen, first-hand, a company scrambling to get students to put as much money on account as possible for several days before locking the doors (I've heard several second-hand accounts of other companies doing this, but I've only seen it myself once). I've seen, first-hand, a company pull a pay rate bait-and-switch, probably assuming I'd be stuck working for them anyway after relocating between provinces.

What did I do about these? There's not a whole lot one person can do except avoid dealing with crooks, which I'm happy to say I did. I left a very lucrative position for a much less lucrative position at another company because I like my integrity. Financially, it hurt. But I was glad I did it then, and I'm glad I did it now. As for the bait-and-switch company, I left the day the first paycheck cleared.
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Re: Renewing Expired Flight Instructor Rating

Post by photofly »

Let's begin with pointing out that the OP has now confirmed that nobody has tried to push him into training he doesn't want, or doesn't need. The response from his FTU sounds like it should meet 100% with your approval.
Conflicting Traffic wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:51 am I used the word "if" quite appropriately.
This is not a logic competition. You're using "if" as a weasel way to table behaviour for which you have no evidence purely so that you can argue against it. You're like a politician who goes on TV saying "If <political opponent> is taking bribes then they should go to prison." But nobody is taking bribes, there's no evidence of taking bribes, and all you've done is drag someone or something into the mud hiding behind "well, I only said 'if'". Don't you get it?

Now, why is it a conspiracy? Because you're amplifying someone else's unsubstantiated claim. "I heard that <political oponent> is taking bribes. Now if that's true they should go to prison. Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying myself that he's taking bribes, I only said "if", but that's what I heard, and if it's true, he should definitely go to prison."

Do you get it now?
But if (see,there's that word "if" again!) they want to try to push a renewal candidate into redoing the whole course, I don't need to assume dishonesty, I can conclude dishonesty based on behaviour.
Dishonesty is about motive. You can't legitimately infer motive from behaviour that has a wide range of explanations.

Assuming that everything you don't like is about dishonesty means you can simply run away, because you can't teach or train or improve people to be honest. If someone is dishonest, then unless you watch them 100% of the time they'll be back at it, and you can't watch someone 100% of the time, so really why bother? It's the perfect excuse *not* to try to improve flight training.
On the instructor side, I've seen, first-hand, students getting milked either for hours in the logbook or for a larger paycheck (I suspect the logbook is the more prevalent motivation, but I don't have any data to back that up). On a couple of occasions, I was in supervisory roles and was able to put a stop to it. On other occasions, I was not in a position to fix it and was left to roll my eyes and not do anything about it.
If you think it was dishonesty rather than incompetence, you are always in a position to do something about it. If you see genuine and knowing malfeasance (and that's what you're alleging) then rolling your eyes and doing nothing, is not acceptable.
I've seen, first-hand, a company scrambling to get students to put as much money on account as possible for several days before locking the doors (I've heard several second-hand accounts of other companies doing this, but I've only seen it myself once).
Trading while insolvent is a criminal offence. If you saw it and did nothing about it, well.... Meanwhile, it's possible that some extra student deposits would have kept the doors open. You're an accountant with access to the figures, are you?

I'm sorry you had bad employment experiences, and I celebrate your success in maintaing your personal integrity. But I don't believe those experiences give you the right to damn a whole industry in the way that you have. There is much to be improved in flight training, but it doesn't begin by inventing in your own head the worst behaviour, then asserting it proves bad faith.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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