Blue Bird in Hot Water

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain

Squaretail
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by Squaretail »

AirFrame wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:14 am
Well, my dad's 150 flies just fine with two 200lb guys in it and full tanks at sea level. There has to be a limit somewhere, how fat does a person have
Well there in lies your answer. Lots of Canada isn't at sea level. Where I worked the school at the field is 3500'. The performance difference for the 172 was much preferred by customers, and given the customer base was split about even with recreational flyers and career oriented ones. I understand why people would pay more for the 172. If you don't, well I won't convince you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

Well there has to be a limit somewhere, I mean just how high does someone have to live before you tell them flying just isn't for them?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Squaretail
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by Squaretail »

photofly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:11 am I think the correct response is that if you don't live at sea level, you have to accept that flying just isn't for you.
I have also considered that possibility.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by AirFrame »

photofly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:36 am If your feelings are bruised by my last response, you might want to think how it feels to be told “I’m sorry, you’re too fat, flying isn’t for you”.
What, exactly, would you say to a 400lb person who walks in the front door of a flying school and says they want to learn to fly?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Squaretail
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by Squaretail »

AirFrame wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:19 am
photofly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:36 am If your feelings are bruised by my last response, you might want to think how it feels to be told “I’m sorry, you’re too fat, flying isn’t for you”.
What, exactly, would you say to a 400lb person who walks in the front door of a flying school and says they want to learn to fly?
I would say "Right this way sir!" The 172 can be remarkably accommodating. Its what I like about it. Just like cats and boxes, if they fits, they sits.

Though in reality I don't expect to have to visit this problem. Haven't for the first decades of instructing, I think the chances are slim (pun intended) for the remaining. Though its been close. I think the largest fellow was an retired O-line guy who said he was 350. Guy was huge, hands so big you could drop a loonie through his wedding ring. I was more worried he was going to break the controls than the 172's capacity to heft him off the ground.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

AirFrame wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:19 am
photofly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:36 am If your feelings are bruised by my last response, you might want to think how it feels to be told “I’m sorry, you’re too fat, flying isn’t for you”.
What, exactly, would you say to a 400lb person who walks in the front door of a flying school and says they want to learn to fly?
If I didn't have an appropriate airplane, i would try to direct the customer to an FTU that did. I wouldn't tell a customer they cannot ever be a pilot simply because they don't fit into my cheap-ass fleet of C150s.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3095
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:45 pm
AirFrame wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:19 am
photofly wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:36 am If your feelings are bruised by my last response, you might want to think how it feels to be told “I’m sorry, you’re too fat, flying isn’t for you”.
What, exactly, would you say to a 400lb person who walks in the front door of a flying school and says they want to learn to fly?
If I didn't have an appropriate airplane, i would try to direct the customer to an FTU that did. I wouldn't tell a customer they cannot ever be a pilot simply because they don't fit into my cheap-ass fleet of C150s.
What is the maximum weight seat belts are designed for?

FAA rules seem to suggest 215 lbs. Nothing prevents manufacturers from making stronger seat belts, but it would be unlikely they could support 300lbs in a crash.

https://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part23-785-FAR.shtml (first paragraph, and paragraph m)
(a) Each seat/restraint system and the supporting structure must be designed to support occupants weighing at least 215 pounds when subjected to the maximum load factors corresponding to the specified flight and ground load conditions, as defined in the approved operating envelope of the airplane. In addition, these loads must be multiplied by a factor of 1.33 in determining the strength of all fittings and the attachment of—
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:51 pm FAA rules seem to suggest 215 lbs. Nothing prevents manufacturers from making stronger seat belts, but it would be unlikely they could support 300lbs in a crash.
A crash isn't a calibrated event. Some crashes may generate much higher loads than the design standard even with a body weighing less than 215lbs. In some eventualities even a weaker seatbelt could prevent or significantly reduce injury for a body weighting more than 215lbs. Seatbelt strength isn't a regulatory limit on the weight of an occupant in the same way as, for example, maximum takeoff weight of the aircraft might be.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3095
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:56 pm
digits_ wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:51 pm FAA rules seem to suggest 215 lbs. Nothing prevents manufacturers from making stronger seat belts, but it would be unlikely they could support 300lbs in a crash.
A crash isn't a calibrated event. Some crashes may generate much higher loads than the design standard even with a body weighing less than 215lbs. In some eventualities even a weaker seatbelt could prevent or significantly reduce injury for a body weighting more than 215lbs. Seatbelt strength isn't a regulatory limit on the weight of an occupant in the same way as, for example, maximum takeoff weight of the aircraft might be.
A random crash isn't calibrated, but the regulations say they need to withstand a load of 215lbs at 1.33 times the maximum load achieved in the flight envelope (paraphrased).

That means, that the 300lbs person's seat belt can snap in turbulence that is otherwise safe to the airplane. I doubt that is what the manufacturer intended.

I can't find any regulation limiting pax weight, so I suspect you are right there is no written rule as such, but keeping this in mind, would it really be a good idea to put a 300lbs person in the seats?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

I think you need to rephrase the question. Are you saying nobody over 215lbs should sit in an airplane?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3095
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:22 pm I think you need to rephrase the question. Are you saying nobody over 215lbs should sit in an airplane?
I only now found out about this design requirement, but yeah, it does make me wonder if it is that smart that people over 215lbs are sitting in those planes. Let alone a pilot over 300 lbs.

Realistically, I'm probably missing something else, maybe some seatbelt systems are rated for higher loads, but it does make me wonder.

Let me counter by asking you what the maximum weight would be you would put on a pilot or pax seat.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

Airliner seat strength requirements are described in 14 CFR 25.562, which requires the use of a 170lb crash test dummy. What's the maximum weight you'd put in an airline seat?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3095
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:44 pm Airliner seat strength requirements are described in 14 CFR 25.562, which requires the use of a 170lb crash test dummy. What's the maximum weight you'd put in an airline seat?
There must be something else going on. If I get injured as a pax because a 250lbs guy behind me breaks his seatbelt during a rejected take off and hurts my back, and the airline knowingly put him in a seat only tested up to 170lbs, I think I would be able to find a lawyer to use this a significant leverage for a damage claim.

As an airline ceo I would be worried if this is the only information available.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

I don’t think a rejected takeoff generates decelerations anywhere near the design failure seatbelt strength, but all aircraft strength standards are all predicated on some standard event and some standard load, and there’s no guarantee of not exceeding that load in a real event. You couldn’t make an aircraft that would manage every possible passenger load in any possible event and was still able to fly economically.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
User avatar
Beefitarian
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6500
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:53 am
Location: A couple of meters away from others.

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by Beefitarian »

I'm pretty sure the insurance companies would have got after this if the seatbelt was not going to hold me. I'm not the only guy that likes pizza flying. Interesting to read the 215lb criteria though.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Pardon me, may I fly your light single?
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:36 pm. If I get injured as a pax because a 250lbs guy behind me breaks his seatbelt during a rejected take off and hurts my back, and the airline knowingly put him in a seat only tested up to 170lbs, I think I would be able to find a lawyer to use this a significant leverage for a damage claim.

As an airline ceo I would be worried if this is the only information available.
By the way, “we follow industry/trade body/government recommendations” and “out aircraft are approved by national regulators” are both excellent defences in law.

If a seatbelt that meets the standards fails in flight a claimant has to demonstrate that the standard for seat belts is inadequate, which is a very steep hill to climb.

Doing what everyone else does automatically gets you out of a lot of trouble, while being the odd one out or deciding to do things “your way” can leave you very very exposed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3319
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by PilotDAR »

I have always found it worrisome that our aviation regulatory structure puts a limitation on just about everything we may fly in a plane, except the weight of an individual person. I once discussed this with TC, after being a commercial passenger on a Canadian airline, as was told by TC that: "We're just not going there, it's too political". So political correctness will prevail over safety! Now, if I could figure out how I demonstrate compliance to political correctness instead of safety, when issuing an STC!
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3095
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

PilotDAR wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:18 am I have always found it worrisome that our aviation regulatory structure puts a limitation on just about everything we may fly in a plane, except the weight of an individual person. I once discussed this with TC, after being a commercial passenger on a Canadian airline, as was told by TC that: "We're just not going there, it's too political". So political correctness will prevail over safety! Now, if I could figure out how I demonstrate compliance to political correctness instead of safety, when issuing an STC!
Yes, exactly. If you were to put boxes instead of a seat, you'd have a max weight, max weight per square feet, distance of spacers required etc.

But a mass of flesh can be any weight you like...
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
redlaser
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:48 am
Location: CYXU

Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by redlaser »

Not everyone is cut out to be a pilot but some students will continue no matter what the costs, usually the rich parent in some foreign country is paying for the flight training, So don't blaim the FTU, Sometimes a change of instructor is warranted, I've seen instructors take students on joy rides and not teach the student anything, Like flying to a different airport to have a coffee, Remember not all instructors are good instructors, So don't blaim the FTU, I've seen Chinese students take 200 hrs to acquire a PPL, Bluebird may have some instructors looking to build flight time and not interested in their students, but again Bluebird may have bad students who just won't quit although they should seek another career, and not be a pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Don't let your wife talk you out of buying an airplane, :D
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”