Blue Bird in Hot Water

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Squaretail
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by Squaretail »

AirFrame wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:49 am
I know a Cirrus looks a lot cooler and sexier than a 172, too. Why aren't schools full of them?
Easy, same reason schools don't use 182s. 152 is about 4.5 gph, 172 about 6.5 gph (training use of course) the 182 and cirrus are in the order of 15 gph. A new Cirrus is also almost twice the cost of a newer model 172.

There's a point where price still matters. People will accept training costs of 15-20% more, not double.


There's a demand for training that can be done in the 45 hour minimum, too, but schools aren't falling over themselves to offer that.
Actually there isn't. Efficient training is far down the list of customer priorities. Convenience is number one. Seconded by professional perception, shinyness of equipment, and perception of safety. If you factor in career training, the 45 hour to finish a PPL disappears entirely since many look at any extra time spent in there as simply extra time-building towards the two hundred for the CPL. In that context, how many hours you did your PPL in become irrelevant. Considering kids are dumping down up to a $100,000 for a full school career package - where often its also perceived that newer better equipment is also going to somehow prepare them more for the world of airlines, the 150/152 becomes even less appealing.

It should be noted that most of the folks who may be interested in efficient training, also are the ones who can buy their own plane, so the market for the rental student in this category gets even smaller.

One should note that the economics of training fleets in this regard is specific to Canada. With a bigger training market south of the border, and differing taxation and hindrances in Europe, things still make sense there. For instance there's a large enough market stateside to support both schools who still run old 150/152 fleets, and ones that run stables of Cirruses.
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I'm not sure what's more depressing: That everyone has a price, or how low the price always is.
photofly
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

A 182 and a Cirrus are both lousy platforms for primary training, and neither is approved for intentional spins, so you'd have to have something else available too. And all those crank counterweights on the big-bore six cylinder continentals being thrown around fourteen times daily in power on stalls and recoveries... <shiver> .... ugh.

CPL training: candidate has do demonstrate a spin and recovery in their flight test, so that removes the Cirrus and 182 from that market too.

Instrument training, that's different, but the C150 isn't in that market.

Your factory new (nosegear) options for primary training are the C172XP, DA20 ... and, uh... that's about it, I think.

Remember that spin training was removed from the FAA PPL syllabus in 1949, and the US market is the one that drives the specification for light and training aircraft.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

You could still get new piper warriors for about 300k as well, but I think they have been renamed pilot 100 now: https://www.piper.com/model/pilot-100/
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

The Piper Warrior isn't approved for intentional spins, so it's in the same boat as the DA40. Nice, but won't do the trick in Canada.
(I think that's actually a re-badged Piper Archer, since it's 180hp., but same difference.)
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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Squaretail wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:42 pmThere's a point where price still matters. People will accept training costs of 15-20% more, not double.
...
Actually there isn't. Efficient training is far down the list of customer priorities.
15-20% more... Compared to what? New students don't have a "baseline" to compare to, unless the 150 is offered on the price list and the 172 is offered as a "premium upgrade" to show that it's only 15-20% more to have more room, larger panel, more prestige(?), whatever.

If they'll pay 20% more due to more expensive planes, and 50% more due to taking 70 hours instead of 45, then you're pretty quickly paying double for your flight training over learning in a 150 with a single instructor in minimum time. That's just for the Private as well. Do schools quote that you can get your Commercial in the 200hr minimum, or do they jack that up 50% to 300 hours as well?
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Squaretail
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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AirFrame wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:05 am 15-20% more... Compared to what?
Compared to other schools. Students do shop, however so briefly. Its been my experience students will pay more for training if it suits their priorities.
If they'll pay 20% more due to more expensive planes, and 50% more due to taking 70 hours instead of 45, then you're pretty quickly paying double for your flight training over learning in a 150 with a single instructor in minimum time. That's just for the Private as well. Do schools quote that you can get your Commercial in the 200hr minimum, or do they jack that up 50% to 300 hours as well?
First, I have yet to see a 200 hour wonder with more than, well 200 hours. To finish their CPL at least. Second, your premise is based upon the idea that anyone training in a 150 is going to complete in the minimum time, and anyone who trains in something else is going to complete in a longer time. Personally the biggest factor whether a student completes in less time or more is how compressed their training is, which while a factor that one can shop around, more often its a restriction the student places upon themselves. The airplane cost - unless its astronomically higher than what going rates are, isn't usually much of a variable.

Now that said, I've been aware of schools charging close to double what the rest of their competitors are, for the same airplane - and somehow they still make a go of it. All factors being equal, the viability of a flight school on domestic business depends on three things: location, location, location. But then, domestic business seems to be an increasingly vanishing fraction of the Canadian training market.

I mean ultimately, if you feel a school run on the premise that the cheapest possible trainer is the winning solution, you need to ask yourself why aren't you doing it, or at least investing in such a project.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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Squaretail wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:33 amFirst, I have yet to see a 200 hour wonder with more than, well 200 hours. To finish their CPL at least.
This alone fascinates me. Why can't PPL students (on average) complete in the minimum time, when CPL students can? I'd really like to know the answer.
Second, your premise is based upon the idea that anyone training in a 150 is going to complete in the minimum time, and anyone who trains in something else is going to complete in a longer time.
No, that's not my "premise", I was just comparing the two extremes.
I mean ultimately, if you feel a school run on the premise that the cheapest possible trainer is the winning solution, you need to ask yourself why aren't you doing it, or at least investing in such a project.
All I suggested is that the 172 is more airplane than you need to train people. If the 150 didn't exist, would you be suggesting that schools *need* to use a 182, because the 172 is the "cheapest possible trainer"?

When I learned to fly in the late 90's, the school had three 150's (might have been one 152) and one 172. Only the commercial students (or PPL graduates) were allowed to rent the 172. All PPL students flew the 150's. Two other schools on the same airport (Boundary Bay) also had significant fleets of 150-series models. So it *was* possible then. What changed?
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by digits_ »

AirFrame wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:44 am
Squaretail wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:33 amFirst, I have yet to see a 200 hour wonder with more than, well 200 hours. To finish their CPL at least.
This alone fascinates me. Why can't PPL students (on average) complete in the minimum time, when CPL students can? I'd really like to know the answer.
Easy. The idea is that you spend a significant amount of time getting experience between the PPL and CPL issue. You could say that you roughly need to acquire 100 hours of flying time "as you see fit", to get the CPL. That removes the urgency to get your PPL in the minimum amount of hours, as PPL training counts towards those hours as well. Add to that that the CPL flight test and PPL flight test is not all that much different, which means that if you pass your PPL at 150 hours, even a weak student will most likely pass their CPL flight test at 200 hours. They just didn't get the 100 hours of "other flying".

It's a bit of a shame really. Good students save a bit on dual costs - assuming weak PPL students need more dual-, but other than that, they still have to fly XX amount of hours just because. Sure, they'll get experience, but since weaker PPL/CPL students don't get that extra experience, how valuable is it really to get that CPL?

Revamp the CPL flight test and get rid of the minimum amount of required hours. If someone with 20 hours can ace the CPL test, so bit it. If everyone can ace it with 20 hours, your test is probably sh*t.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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All I suggested is that the 172 is more airplane than you need to train people. If the 150 didn't exist, would you be suggesting that schools *need* to use a 182, because the 172 is the "cheapest possible trainer"?
Technically speaking, a 150 or 152 is "more" than you need to train people too, I mean with the expense of a 100 hp engine, is absolute lowest operating costs are what you're after, why hasn't your options boiled down to some Aeronca Champs?

As I said before, I operated both 152s and 172s on the same flight line before. Customers overwhelmingly preferred the 172. They were willing to pay more for the, well, more. You can tell me all day long that there's a market for your idea, but that hasn't been my experience. Ask Cessna why their Skycatcher didn't pan out.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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Squaretail wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:31 pmTechnically speaking, a 150 or 152 is "more" than you need to train people too, I mean with the expense of a 100 hp engine, is absolute lowest operating costs are what you're after, why hasn't your options boiled down to some Aeronca Champs?
That's true, but I think that would jump into the "absolutely cheaping out" category that everyone seems to think i'm looking for. The suggestion was that given a 172 was acceptable, why not the smaller, cheaper, and cheaper to operate, airplane from the same manufacturer?
As I said before, I operated both 152s and 172s on the same flight line before. Customers overwhelmingly preferred the 172. They were willing to pay more for the, well, more. You can tell me all day long that there's a market for your idea, but that hasn't been my experience.
And yet, schools are doing it: https://www.montair.com/wp-content/uplo ... -Rates.pdf

Maybe there aren't enough good 150's available for everyone to do this. Or maybe it's because people tend to put more money into a 172 upgrading the panel, and students are willing to pay more for the upgraded panel. Maybe if people put glass cockpits in 150's like they do 172's they'd be more attractive? Yes, that raises their cost, but if you're doing it in a 172 anyway, that cost is the same either way.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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digits_ wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:21 amEasy. The idea is that you spend a significant amount of time getting experience between the PPL and CPL issue. You could say that you roughly need to acquire 100 hours of flying time "as you see fit", to get the CPL.
Ah, okay, that makes more sense. I haven't looked at a CPL syllabus. If most of the 200 hours is just "time building" then it makes sense that it would be easy to do in 200 hours.

That said, it may explain the desire for more 172's. The PPL accounts for only 1/4 of the time towards a CPL, so 3/4 of the time spent learning will be CPL focussed, where you'll be thinking along a track of expanding to larger aircraft anyway. That, and you'll be spending a lot of time just time-building, which usually means taking your friends somewhere... And a 4-person plane is better for that than a 2-person plane, especially if you're splitting costs with your passengers.

On those grounds, yes, I agree a 172 is a better choice overall. The 150 as a fleet airplane really only makes sense up to the PPL level, and that's what the schools I was familiar with when I was learning were doing. 150's until you finished your PPL, then you could check out in the 172 and continue with your CPL.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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How many circuits can you do in an hour in a C150 ? How many circuits can you do in a C172 ?
The C150/152 is a great airplane for someone with a skinny friend , designed around the 1970 standard weights of 170 lb males and 135 females . Asking it to perform with the new standard weights is comical and dangerous . Watched two guys at about 240 lbs Each squeeze into a C150 , if it was not for the curvature of the earth they might not have got airborne , they were lucky it was a cooler day .
Hot day they would have been in the trees .
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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2R wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:41 pmHow many circuits can you do in an hour in a C150 ? How many circuits can you do in a C172 ?
This is a metric that might look good on paper but in practice is irrelevant. Flying tight circuits, getting asked to go long downwind to make room for someone, or turn in close to get in ahead of someone, all happens so much that a small difference in climb/cruise performance isn't going to make a large difference in circuits/hour.
The C150/152 is a great airplane for someone with a skinny friend, designed around the 1970 standard weights of 170 lb males and 135 females. Asking it to perform with the new standard weights is comical and dangerous.
Well, my dad's 150 flies just fine with two 200lb guys in it and full tanks at sea level. There has to be a limit somewhere, how fat does a person have to be before you tell them flying isn't for them? Or do you just start equipping with 182's?
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

“How fat does a person have to be...” ... Way to go with the customer service at your new FTU, Horace.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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photofly wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:17 am “How fat does a person have to be...” ... Way to go with the customer service at your new FTU, Horace.
That's an AvCan speciality.

Refuse to clean toilets while calling customers fat. :lol:
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by 7ECA »

I'm impressed, four pages of discussions on how to either cater to more frugal pilots or whether the 172 is a more ideal training aircraft...

When the topic at hand is how a scumbag FTU is taking advantage of international students.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

Hardly anyone could condone that behaviour, so there’s not much to discuss about it.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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photofly wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:43 pm Hardly anyone could condone that behaviour, so there’s not much to discuss about it.
And yet it's a lucrative portion of the flight training market; well, more lucrative when you get contracts to bring in students - you've got to be more "flexible" if you're going to scam them...
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

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rookiepilot wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:36 pmThat's an AvCan speciality.
As is falling to hyperbole or ridicule when someone doesn't like the point that was made and cant come up with a better response. Or maybe that's just @photofly.
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Re: Blue Bird in Hot Water

Post by photofly »

If your feelings are bruised by my last response, you might want to think how it feels to be told “I’m sorry, you’re too fat, flying isn’t for you”.
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