A mom to a child here. Needed some info

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mom2
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A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

Hi everyone. My son has just turned 5. He is obsessed with air planes and has made up his mind that he wants to fly them.
I dont know anyone in this field but from what i gather, it can get expensive. I did start the RESP the month he was born. I have some some questions which i hope you can help me with so I can start saving.

Yes, I know he is still young and may change his mind but the way i see it, it doesnt hurt to start saving and looking into things, if he does end up still wanting to be a pilot later.

entry requirement:
1. He needs to be at least 17 and have credits on physics and math from high school. Needs to have a Private Pilot License (Cost $13,000). Correct?
2. Intro Flight lesson: cost $120.

he needs the above to even apply for Commercial Pilot Training. Correct?

3. I see a lot of info on Professional Pilot Training Program ($75,000) and then again Commercial Pilot Training ($65,000). Will he need both of these to even start flying for a living? With all 3 above, we are looking at $150,000. Am i on the right track?

4. Also, I keep hearing that the RESP that I am keeping aside every month ($245 a month to be precise) cannot be used for any of the above. I am through Knowledge First and when I first started contribution, they said for "College" I can use these. So, I cannot use RESP at all for the above?

5. With factoring in the inflation, and if i can use the RESP, I am going to be able to afford $100 K.

I am asking all these questions, so i can start getting more savings going for him so he doesnt have to worry about tuition at all, like I did when I was 17.

Can someone help me with these questions please. Thank you so much.
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photofly
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by photofly »

There are lots of routes to becoming a commercial pilot. The simplest method is to get a Private Pilot Licence first, then get a Commercial Pilot Licence, both of which can be done at a local Flight Training Unit (flight school). He needs to be 17 to get a PPL, and 18 to get a CPL. This is like learning to drive, and there are no specific academic requirements for this route.

These same licences can also be obtained at some colleges, as part of a more structured programme. Colleges will have their own entry requirements.

Fees and costs will be different in 12 years time. Best thing for now is just to save lots of money.
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mom2
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

photofly wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:21 am There are lots of routes to becoming a commercial pilot. The simplest method is to get a Private Pilot Licence first, then get a Commercial Pilot Licence, both of which can be done at a local Flight Training Unit (flight school). He needs to be 17 to get a PPL, and 18 to get a CPL. This is like learning to drive, and there are no specific academic requirements for this route.

These same licences can also be obtained at some colleges, as part of a more structured programme. Colleges will have their own entry requirements.

Fees and costs will be different in 12 years time. Best thing for now is just to save lots of money.
Thank you so much. Do you by any chance know if we can or cannot use RESP on this? I understand that things could change in the next 12 years but if if I have to stop RESP and get a better plan, earlier would be the best way I feel.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by digits_ »

mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:32 am
photofly wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:21 am There are lots of routes to becoming a commercial pilot. The simplest method is to get a Private Pilot Licence first, then get a Commercial Pilot Licence, both of which can be done at a local Flight Training Unit (flight school). He needs to be 17 to get a PPL, and 18 to get a CPL. This is like learning to drive, and there are no specific academic requirements for this route.

These same licences can also be obtained at some colleges, as part of a more structured programme. Colleges will have their own entry requirements.

Fees and costs will be different in 12 years time. Best thing for now is just to save lots of money.
Thank you so much. Do you by any chance know if we can or cannot use RESP on this? I understand that things could change in the next 12 years but if if I have to stop RESP and get a better plan, earlier would be the best way I feel.
Why would you risk losing out on government grants just for the off chance your kid wants to become a pilot? In 12 years, the pilot job market might be completely different. More and more automation, salaries that keep going down, ... In 12 years the job might not be what it is today.

From my understanding of the RESP, you don't really lose out on anything if you decide not to spend it on school. You just have to give back the 'extras'.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by photofly »

Thank you so much. Do you by any chance know if we can or cannot use RESP on this? I understand that things could change in the next 12 years but if if I have to stop RESP and get a better plan, earlier would be the best way I feel.
A quick check shows (not my field but this is what I read) that if the educational establishment is registered with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada then you can use an RESP. For example, Harv's Air in Manitoba is, and I'm sure there are others. Smaller and possibly more local and convenient flight schools - probably not.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by fish4life »

Lots of careers people are getting into now barely existed if at all 15 years ago so 15 years from now no one knows what will be out there. Great idea though to start saving now for education and I’m sure your child will thank you for it in the future.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by TalkingPie »

If you live in Quebec, or may be disposed to move there at some point, tuition to become a commercial pilot at Cegep de Chicoutimi is essentially free. Needless to say there's competition to get admitted there.

Respectfully, I suggest you be careful about making six-figure academic plans for a child that's five years old. There's still lots to be seen about his tastes, desires, abilities, and the conditions in aviation, and the world at large, over the next 12 years or so. I'd suggest that continuing to put money aside, helping him focus on academics, and being a good parent is getting to the limit of how much you can prepare for his academic future right now.

I know of a few pilots who first got into aviation through the Air Cadets. If by the time he's 12 he's still passionate about aviation, that's a program that may well be worth investigating as an extra-curricular activity.
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mom2
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

digits_ wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:36 am
mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:32 am
photofly wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:21 am There are lots of routes to becoming a commercial pilot. The simplest method is to get a Private Pilot Licence first, then get a Commercial Pilot Licence, both of which can be done at a local Flight Training Unit (flight school). He needs to be 17 to get a PPL, and 18 to get a CPL. This is like learning to drive, and there are no specific academic requirements for this route.

These same licences can also be obtained at some colleges, as part of a more structured programme. Colleges will have their own entry requirements.

Fees and costs will be different in 12 years time. Best thing for now is just to save lots of money.
Thank you so much. Do you by any chance know if we can or cannot use RESP on this? I understand that things could change in the next 12 years but if if I have to stop RESP and get a better plan, earlier would be the best way I feel.
Why would you risk losing out on government grants just for the off chance your kid wants to become a pilot? In 12 years, the pilot job market might be completely different. More and more automation, salaries that keep going down, ... In 12 years the job might not be what it is today.

From my understanding of the RESP, you don't really lose out on anything if you decide not to spend it on school. You just have to give back the 'extras'.
What i meant was, if I let go of RESP and invest in High Risk and High yielding portfolio, it may be better. but now that I type it, it doesn't make sense.
The downside to RESP is that, if he doesnt choose a college, he will only get what I contributed. This mean's, i would have lost the INT that I would have made, if I invested elsewhere. But i get your point. It doesnt make sense when I talk about it instead of just thinking about it.
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mom2
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

photofly wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:58 am
Thank you so much. Do you by any chance know if we can or cannot use RESP on this? I understand that things could change in the next 12 years but if if I have to stop RESP and get a better plan, earlier would be the best way I feel.
A quick check shows (not my field but this is what I read) that if the educational establishment is registered with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada then you can use an RESP. For example, Harv's Air in Manitoba is, and I'm sure there are others. Smaller and possibly more local and convenient flight schools - probably not.
Thank you so much for this. I did not know! many articles online say that ay Pilot training course will not be covered. Its good to know that "some" do cover if they fall under Human Resource and Skill Dev Canada.
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mom2
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

TalkingPie wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:46 am If you live in Quebec, or may be disposed to move there at some point, tuition to become a commercial pilot at Cegep de Chicoutimi is essentially free. Needless to say there's competition to get admitted there.

Respectfully, I suggest you be careful about making six-figure academic plans for a child that's five years old. There's still lots to be seen about his tastes, desires, abilities, and the conditions in aviation, and the world at large, over the next 12 years or so. I'd suggest that continuing to put money aside, helping him focus on academics, and being a good parent is getting to the limit of how much you can prepare for his academic future right now.

I know of a few pilots who first got into aviation through the Air Cadets. If by the time he's 12 he's still passionate about aviation, that's a program that may well be worth investigating as an extra-curricular activity.
When i was 17, I had a really hard time with selecting good schools because I couldn't afford it. So, I feel so paranoid about him facing the same issue.
I hear you about the possible changes. Air cadets is a great idea. I will keep that in mind.

One question still bugs me though, must he do the Professional Pilot Training and Commercial? Are we really looking at 150K currently as expenses?
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Bede
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by Bede »

Your kid sounds like me.

What province do you live in?

Seneca, Sault, and Confederation all offer subsidized flight training together with a college diploma. Tuition is the same as any other program.

Generally you can use RESP for flight training.

Air cadets offer PPL scholarships bu they are very difficult to get. He can join when he’s 12.
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mom2
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

Bede wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:22 pm Your kid sounds like me.

What province do you live in?

Seneca, Sault, and Confederation all offer subsidized flight training together with a college diploma. Tuition is the same as any other program.

Generally you can use RESP for flight training.

Air cadets offer PPL scholarships bu they are very difficult to get. He can join when he’s 12.
I am in Toronto, Ontario. I will surely look into the air cadets. He is obsessed. The other day we were watching YouTube (Bright side about a May Day issue). He said, "Oh momma, looks St. Elmo's Fire". I had to google for that word :oops:

If I may be so forward as to ask, for him/you to complete the program and get to a stage where he can assist the first officer, are we looking at 150K (currently)? will he need Professional Pilot Training and Commercial?
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by ahramin »

mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:41 pmOne question still bugs me though, must he do the Professional Pilot Training and Commercial? Are we really looking at 150K currently as expenses?
Maybe. There are many different educational paths to getting to the point where you can earn a living as a pilot. Personally I spent about 20k.

Private Pilot Licence: Free through the air cadets
Bought a plane: $12 000
Used the plane for recreation and personal travel: Not counted, about $50 / hour * 300 hours (this would be at least double at today's prices)
Commercial Pilot Licence: Just over 6k using my aircraft
Sold the plane: -$15 000
First job was flying skydivers at 5$ a load, then towing gliders at $5 a tow. Made about $4k a summer.
Multi Engine rating and Instrument ratings were another 9k.
First full time job was flying medevac aircraft, $35k / year.

On the other hand a friend of mine spent $65k around the same time getting an aviation university degree and the same licences and ratings. Couldn't find a job and gave up to become a quality control expert. Married a lawyer and bought a house in Vancouver. He's doing much better than me financially :)

So if you are going to be thrifty and smart about it, I would budget about $40k in today's dollars. If not, $100k. Keeping in mind that we have no idea what the training landscape will look like in 15 years.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by rxl »

mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:26 pm
digits_ wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:36 am
mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:32 am
Thank you so much. Do you by any chance know if we can or cannot use RESP on this? I understand that things could change in the next 12 years but if if I have to stop RESP and get a better plan, earlier would be the best way I feel.
Why would you risk losing out on government grants just for the off chance your kid wants to become a pilot? In 12 years, the pilot job market might be completely different. More and more automation, salaries that keep going down, ... In 12 years the job might not be what it is today.

From my understanding of the RESP, you don't really lose out on anything if you decide not to spend it on school. You just have to give back the 'extras'.
What i meant was, if I let go of RESP and invest in High Risk and High yielding portfolio, it may be better. but now that I type it, it doesn't make sense.
The downside to RESP is that, if he doesnt choose a college, he will only get what I contributed. This mean's, i would have lost the INT that I would have made, if I invested elsewhere. But i get your point. It doesnt make sense when I talk about it instead of just thinking about it.
The airplane bug can bite hard and early and last a lifetime. I was bitten at about your son’s age, and here I am almost 60 years later still infected and lovin it!

I’m no expert on the RESP thing but I’m of the understanding that if the money is not used for education, you get all your invested capital back tax free and you have to return the grant. Everything else earned in the plan like interest, dividends or capital gains are paid to you as an Accumulative Income Payment and is taxable in the year you receive the payment plus a 20% penalty. If you have RRSP room, the AIP can be transferred there and remain tax deferred. An RESP can remain open for 36 years, so there should be plenty of time to sort everything thing out. You might do better outside of an RESP, but you are forgoing that grant.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by Bede »

mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:35 pm I am in Toronto, Ontario. I will surely look into the air cadets. He is obsessed. The other day we were watching YouTube (Bright side about a May Day issue). He said, "Oh momma, looks St. Elmo's Fire". I had to google for that word :oops:
It's way cooler in real life :)
mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:35 pm If I may be so forward as to ask, for him/you to complete the program and get to a stage where he can assist the first officer, are we looking at 150K (currently)? will he need Professional Pilot Training and Commercial?
Gosh no. The schools that I listed above are whatever normal tuition is. If you want to go to a private flight training unit (aka flying school), probably $60-70k these days. That will get you a commercial pilot license. He'll probably want a multi engine rating and instrument rating (licensed to fly in clouds). Advantage of doing it privately is you can complete the license faster without taking all of the other fluff courses associated with college programs. Some people buy their own plane and train with a freelance instructor. Big upfront cost, but a bit cheaper in the long run. That's a whole different discussion though.

Experience for the Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL) is not done at a school. You work as a pilot with you CPL and get paid. Once he has 1500 hours and passes the exams, he can get an ATPL which let's him work as a captain on a multi-crew aircraft.

Minor point: by "First Officer" do you mean captain? The first officer is also known as the co-pilot in days past. Also the first officer doesn't "assist" the captain. He/she is an integral part of the crew and works together with the captain. Duties are share- the pilots alternate "flying" duties and non flying duties such as talking to ATC. The captain has final legal authority for the flight and assumes all responsibility for the safety of the passengers.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by C-GKNT »

A few random thoughts to add to this thread.

- You can get dual instruction at any age and can solo an airplane (fly alone under the supervision of an instructor) at 14 in Canada.

- You can get a Recreational permit at 16 (some restriction vs. Private pilot such as only 1 passenger). A few kids I know passed the private pilot license requirements at 16, were given recreational permit at that time and then simply issued a private license at 17 when they met the age requirement.

- Don't forget the military route as a possible option.

- The aviation industry is extremely cyclical. When I got my license it was not a great time to be a pilot, so my route to a pilot was being a relatively high income earner in a different industry and buying a plane.

- The following is VERY true in the helicopter world but still applies in the airplane world. NEVER forget that the primary goal of a flight school is to SELL flight training. Making someone employable is somewhere on their list but not necessarily at the top. Be wary of your source of information! There are countless pilots over the years who have spent a lot of money on commercial flight training who are now in other careers to pay off the debt.

- I'm envious! When I asked my parents to help my pay for a pilots license when I was 16 their response was "are you #$%#@ crazy? we don't have that kind of money". Took everything I had (and then some) to pay for it myself a few years later.

- Look into the COPA for Kids program (C4K), a volunteer program to introduce kids 7-17 to aviation. Our local flying club flys 100+ kids/year under C4K (at least we did pre-covid :( ). There are C4K rallies on a regular basis all across Canada. Hopefully, CV-19 will be sorted out in 2 years when your son is old enough to participate.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by Choppermech1986 »

Teach him the value of work, social skills and humility, ideally through a part time job as a teenager so that he can save for his flying by himself. Use the University tuition to get a degree should he not be able to maintain a medical certificate or some guy in a far off country eats a bat or something and his entire career goes down the toilet for a few years, we'll be due another aviation recession in 15 years anyway.

With the utmost of respect, I know you want the absolute best for your child and to provide to him what you weren't given yourself, but I promise you that this industry doesn't need any more entitled kids who have had everything handed to them on a platter, you'll set him up much better for success if he has to work for it. He'll love Air Cadets just as much as he enjoys his job at McDonalds/mowing lawns.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by altiplano »

There are lots of ways to invest an resp.

I have some with a roboadvisor in a diversified portfolio of ETFs, some in my own brokerage account interested in bonds and dividends stocks, and some in GICs.

You should 100% stay with the resp 20% instant gain program but review how you're investing, I don't know where you're putting your money... maybe a savings account at a bank? That will underperform the broader market over the next 15 years.

If you don't use it at an accredited school, you don't lose your gains, you just have to give back the subsidy.
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by PilotDAR »

Hi Mom,

Aside from the financial factors, I will suggest that there are some foundation steps for your son at this early age. If he takes to model airplanes, building and flying them can ingrain many piloting basics at an early age. I'm not talking expensive, store bought radio control planes, but rather the low cost balsawood free flight models, and a few plastic kits every now and then. This is not a matter of spending one's way through a hobby, but rather using the hobby as a low cost learning tool. In our world of awesome electronics, and technology, some basics get left behind, and really never understood by doing them. As your son learns to trim the trailing edge of a model wing, or balance it better so it will glide well, or learns the flight controls and features of a plane from a detailed plastic model, these are solid basics. In a number of books I have read, many well known pilots started with model planes as a kid. My mother taught me model plane building, and bought me just enough balsa wood to hand cut the parts to glue together. I still have her book on building balsawood gliders, which has a copyright date of 1944.

Teach your son patient perseverance. As mentioned earlier, working for what he wants to achieve. 'Doesn't mean your son can't enjoy the work of building models, but the point is to put out the effort to see it through from plans on the table before him, to flying. By the time you're paying for an airplane and an instructor, you want your son doing the work to learn, and being focused. Flying, more so than most pastimes, will not tolerate inattention, nor people taking short cuts to get there - the best pilots did the work.

In a previous post, there was a mention of "entitled kids". Yeah, I'm cautious about these people and pilots. They may have their parent's fancy plane, but it doesn't mean that they did the work to get there, as maybe not the parents either. I am much more impressed by a young pilot who lands in a modest plane, which maybe still needs some paint and interior, but they helped rebuild themselves, and truly care for.

Get your son to the airport (a small airport, where children are welcomed). Watch planes land and takeoff all afternoon. Two reasons: Your son will see and enjoy the planes, and better, you may meet outgoing pilots who will offer some additional experience. Though small airports are less open to eager youngsters these days, it's still worth a try. Again, polite perseverance.

I was the model building kid, who then hung around the local airport, and offered to wash planes. Once I showed the working attitude, I was offered part time work cleaning airplanes being rebuilt and repaired, then invited to perform simple maintenance work. In the midst of this, I was taken along on the occasional flight. When I was 15, I had a few hours of casual flying experience, so my mom saw me into flying lessons (at Brampton). That was in the '70's and before the recreational pilot permit, so I had to wait to be old enough to solo, and then earn my PPL, but I just practiced until I reached the required age. The mentoring people I met along the decades were truly inspiring, and I have never not worked in aviation since the mid '70's.

My mother set me on a good path, by teaching me to devote myself, and work hard, she was right! The fact you asked here is an excellent start for your son, check for a private message....
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mom2
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Re: A mom to a child here. Needed some info

Post by mom2 »

ahramin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:18 pm
mom2 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:41 pmOne question still bugs me though, must he do the Professional Pilot Training and Commercial? Are we really looking at 150K currently as expenses?
Maybe. There are many different educational paths to getting to the point where you can earn a living as a pilot. Personally I spent about 20k.

Private Pilot Licence: Free through the air cadets
Bought a plane: $12 000
Used the plane for recreation and personal travel: Not counted, about $50 / hour * 300 hours (this would be at least double at today's prices)
Commercial Pilot Licence: Just over 6k using my aircraft
Sold the plane: -$15 000
First job was flying skydivers at 5$ a load, then towing gliders at $5 a tow. Made about $4k a summer.
Multi Engine rating and Instrument ratings were another 9k.
First full time job was flying medevac aircraft, $35k / year.

On the other hand a friend of mine spent $65k around the same time getting an aviation university degree and the same licences and ratings. Couldn't find a job and gave up to become a quality control expert. Married a lawyer and bought a house in Vancouver. He's doing much better than me financially :)

So if you are going to be thrifty and smart about it, I would budget about $40k in today's dollars. If not, $100k. Keeping in mind that we have no idea what the training landscape will look like in 15 years.
Thank you. This actually gives me a good sense of what it could cost, if we dont go through the "school" route. Good to know that it is actually possible!
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