Spins before solo?

[photofly]

Is there a rule that says a student has to complete an exercise on spins before flying solo?

[2R]

They removed spins from the Syllabus years ago . Did someone put it back ?

[photofly]

As far as I know Exercise 13 has been then since the dawn of time, and is still there. I'm trying to work out what rule is broken if a student flies a first solo before completing it.

[Squaretail]

Is there a rule that says a student has to complete an exercise on spins before flying solo?

The main operative one would be 405.14

405.14 Flight training that is conducted using an aeroplane or helicopter shall be conducted in accordance with the applicable flight instructor guide

And inspecting the current FIG, incipient spins are included from lesson plans 4 onward, which is well before lesson plan 11 - the first solo. Now there is some leeway to modify, the training exercises before the solo, I can't imagine deleting any of them.

Now to be honest, I have found differing opinions with TC on how definitive thou shalt follow the FIG's proposed lesson plans, but the general interpretation I have gotten is you can always have more, you can't have less than what is laid out in the FIG's lesson plans. Many schools of course have much more than what is above, which is in line with TC's "thou shalt not miss anything" approach to instructor technique.

Now that said, if one is conducting training at a FTU, one may also be bound by 406.13 (f)

406.13 A flight training unit operator certificate shall contain the following general conditions:


(f) the flight training unit shall, when required to establish and maintain a training manual in accordance with section 406.62, conduct training in accordance with that training manual;

If the syllabus in your TC approved training manual dictates that thou shalt do spins before a student solos in its approved syllabus, well then you are bound to conduct training in accordance with your training manual.

They removed spins from the Syllabus years ago . Did someone put it back ?

Indicates the confusion within the training establishment on the subject.

[photofly]

FIG says, apropos of part III (Lesson Plans)

the personal instructional techniques of an individual flight instructor may be cause for modification of this syllabus

So it's hard to see how you can be hauled up before the beak for not following it.

[Squaretail]

FIG says, apropos of part III (Lesson Plans)

the personal instructional techniques of an individual flight instructor may be cause for modification of this syllabus

So it's hard to see how you can be hauled up before the beak for not following it.

True. 406.13 is more relevant to most instructors, or in most cases, the CFIs.

[photofly]

True. 406.13 is more relevant to most instructors, or in most cases, the CFIs.

Read it carefully, and you'll see you only need a training manual if you teach an integrated course, not for a regular PPL:

(f) the flight training unit shall, when required to establish and maintain a training manual in accordance with section 406.62, conduct training in accordance with that training manual; and

So that lets everyone else off the hook.

[tsgarp]

It's a bit convoluted, but it is there.

The CARs say that you will carry out flight training in accordance with the TC Syllabus (CAR 405.12). The TC Syllabus (found in the Flight Instructor Guide) has spins listed prior to circuit work.

[photofly]

Do you mean 405.14?

I don't detect any regulation that says because exercise A has a lower number than exercise B that should unduly influence the order in which they're taught. Otherwise nobody would get to use the radio or consider emergencies until after they've learned cross country navigation, instrument flying and night flying, for that matter.


Nobody has mentioned the TC PTR, which lists "spins" as an exercise to be signed off before first solo, but I don't see any regulation that's breached if it isn't.

[Squaretail]

Read it carefully,

Yeah I was puzzling over that earlier, but its was all I could find, though I remember some wording being different before. Its possible the CAR was changed since I last had a discussion over it. I mean it has been probably a decade ago or so.

[Squaretail]

Read it carefully,

Yeah I was puzzling over that earlier, but its was all I could find, though I remember some wording being different before. Its possible the CAR was changed since I last had a discussion over it. I mean it has been probably a decade ago or so.

Edit: Backtracking a bit, since this is itching at my mind, I'm thinking this is what I was after, though it only muddies the waters a bit. In typical TC fashion, what they want isn't to state things clearly, but make you try to guess the answer they want...

Flight Training Program
405.11 No person shall conduct flight training unless the flight training program is in accordance with the requirements of Subpart 1 in respect of

(a) the initial issuance of a permit, licence or rating;

(b) the renewal of a rating; and

(c) a flight review.

Flight Training Program Approval
405.12 Where a syllabus for a flight training program is not set out in the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Crew Permits, Licences and Ratings, the Minister shall approve a proposed syllabus for a flight training program if the program meets those standards.

Flight Training Program Outline
405.13 A person who conducts flight training using an aeroplane or helicopter shall provide to each trainee, at the time of commencing a flight training program referred to in section 405.11, a flight training program outline that meets the personnel licensing standards.

Flight Training Program Requirements
405.14 Flight training that is conducted using an aeroplane or helicopter shall be conducted in accordance with the applicable flight instructor guide and flight training manual or equivalent document and the applicable training manual on human factors.

Now confusingly, I can't find any specified Flight Training Programs in the CARs, there are no syllabi in the aforementioned 'Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Crew Permits, Licences and Ratings", but of course the Minister may approve such a program, which one of course one may assume must include a syllabus. Side note, I delved into this once before when someone at TC decided our FTU wasn't operating with what they deemed an approved syllabus - long story. So I would suspect, that while the CARs don't directly outline how flight training must be done, TC's gatekeeping on approving the syllabus means that such an order of training is likely something they make sure you insert during this process.

The presence of the pre-solo checklist in the PTR - which I'll note was also required as part of the digital PTRs we used, which again was approved by TC - indicates that while this bit of flight training order may not be directly worded in the CARs, is possibly an artifact that has remained, if not in the word of the law, maintained in spirit by the regulator.

Rules aside, when I was a CFI, I made sure all the students did lessons on spins (and slips, stalls and spirals for that matter) before they went solo. I really didn't want to be wishing I had taught that after a first solo flight came to grief. None ever did in all those years, so hopefully it was a good idea.

[455tt]

As far as I know Exercise 13 has been then since the dawn of time, and is still there. I'm trying to work out what rule is broken if a student flies a first solo before completing it.

Why bother trying to determine the formal existence of such a rule when we all follow it in practice, regardless?

Stalls and spins go together; you need to learn them both since one leads to the other. We all know that many accidents have resulted from improper stall-spin awareness and recovery technique. Stall-spin awareness and recovery training is a well established and fundamental industry training norm provided to pre-solo's.

Even if one could conclude that there is no definitive rule that explicitly states a student must complete stall-spin training before solo, an instructor that sends students to first solo without such training would most certainly be considered incompetent and would be found negligent were there to be an accident and resulting lawsuit. Not to mention denial of insurance coverage following the accident for failure to use accepted industry training protocols.

[photofly]

As far as I know Exercise 13 has been then since the dawn of time, and is still there. I'm trying to work out what rule is broken if a student flies a first solo before completing it.

Why bother trying to determine the formal existence of such a rule when we all follow it in practice, regardless?

Do we? How do you know?

Stalls and spins go together; you need to learn them both since one leads to the other.

Well, I don't think that's even a little bit true. Full spin training hasn't been part of the US PPL syllabus since 1949. Nor are full spins taught in almost all countries. I would say Canada is an outlier, on the fringe, and most unusual, in that respect. If every single US pilot who gained a PPL in the last 71 years hasn't done a spin, ever, how can you say they're required even before the very first solo flight, in Canada?

Even if one could conclude that there is no definitive rule that explicitly states a student must complete stall-spin training before solo

Now you're setting up your own argument to knock down. Sneaky. I didn't ask about stall training, or wing drops in the stall. Or about correct use of the rudder in turns. Or slips and slipping turns, and the importance of avoiding a skid. I asked about spins, specifically exercise 13, in which a student climbs to 5,000 feet and completes a recovery from an intentional one or two turn spin.

failure to use accepted industry training protocols.

Well, like I said, it's Canada that doesn't use accepted training protocols.

I'm just asking if there's a rule that says students are required to do spins before they solo.

[the-minister31]

It is clearly stated in the PTR that spin must be done before First Solo, then again, the form on which PTR are based does not exist anymore on TC website (26-0313), yet it is still referenced in the CASS... No luck there.

CARS 405.24
In Exercice 18 (first solo), it states that every exercices specified in lesson plans 1 to 10 has to be taught before first solo. That includes "Incipient spins".

[2R]

Big F difference between incipient spin and a fully developed spin . Most instructors would struggle to recover from a fully developed spin .
I have flown with two instructors that had issues with fully developed spins . The first one lost a leg in a spin they could not get out off in Cessna that got tucked in to a full spin . The second died in a flat spin in a Yak in Moscow . Both had been exposed to the casual incipient spin . A totally different animal than the beast of a fully developed tucked in spin .
Full developed Spins were never meant to be taught in a non-aerobatic aircraft. They should only be taught in an aerobatic rated aircraft with a current aerobatic instructor ! .

[digits_]

Big F difference between incipient spin and a fully developed spin . Most instructors would struggle to recover from a fully developed spin .
I have flown with two instructors that had issues with fully developed spins . The first one lost a leg in a spin they could not get out off in Cessna that got tucked in to a full spin . The second died in a flat spin in a Yak in Moscow . Both had been exposed to the casual incipient spin . A totally different animal than the beast of a fully developed tucked in spin .
Full developed Spins were never meant to be taught in a non-aerobatic aircraft. They should only be taught in an aerobatic rated aircraft with a current aerobatic instructor ! .

What do you mean with a "tucked in" spin?

[172_Captain]

Been awhile since I instructed. Is it not a pre-solo requirement to sign off at the front of the PTR?

[the-minister31]

Full developed Spins were never meant to be taught in a non-aerobatic aircraft. They should only be taught in an aerobatic rated aircraft with a current aerobatic instructor ! .

Utility-rated aircraft that are approved for spins are very capable of full spins. If the guy handling the controls is, that is another story.

I feel some instructors should know more about spins, that is the issue in my opinion. I talked to so many instructor that were very uncomfortable doing a full spin by themselves, even less letting a student practice one.

[the-minister31]

And another thing, if the aircraft is approved and flown with regards to POH limitations and procedures, it should stop spinning quite fast if the inputs are correct. I don't understand how someone could enter a "uncontrollable spin" in such conditions.

It only show that either they don't know the proper procedure or the aircraft is not operated within the limits of the POH. It's not rocket science, follow what's in the book.

[shamrock104]

More times than not I get into the circuit beforehand due to weather issues but get the spins in before the first solo. Spin training not required for the PPL in Europe or the US.