Spins before solo?

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PilotDAR
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by PilotDAR »

I agree with tsgarp, showing the student what a spin looks like will be reassuring to a good learned, and show that a spin entry (in a certified airplane) is recoverable, with adequate altitude. Thus, in part, it will cause the student to be reminded in the background, if you're going to goof around in a plane, do it way up high. And, if you bugger up your goofing around, recovery is possible, if you continue to fly the plane.

I think back to my helicopter training (yeah, nothing to do with spin entry) where my very experienced instructor built my confidence by calmly demonstrating some maneuvers which seemed like dark corners to me, and allowed me to build confidence myself.

I had a brief read of the referenced AC. Yes, it originates from the FAA, but obviously not the Aircraft Certification branch of the FAA. The AC contains:
In an airplane with an extremely aft CG, very light back elevator control forces may lead to inadvertent stall entries and if a spin is entered, the balance of forces on the airplane may result in a flat spin. Recovery from a flat spin is often impossible.
The part of the FAA which certifies planes follows the requirement:
Sec. 23.221

Spinning.

(a) Normal category. A single-engine, normal category airplane must be able to recover from a one-turn spin in not more than one additional turn, with the controls used in the manner normally used for recovery. In addition--
(1) For both the flaps-retracted and flaps-extended conditions, the applicable airspeed limit and positive limit maneuvering load factor may not be exceeded;
(2) There may be no excessive back pressure during the spin or recovery; and
(3) It must be impossible to obtain uncontrollable spins with any use of the controls.
Note that I was taught that the standard is "unrecoverable" where the standard states "uncontrollable", but the intent is the same. The plane will not be certified if a spin can be entered and not recovered. Yes, an aft C of G is going to get you a flatter spin, but if you're within the C of G limits, it'll be recoverable.

I think back to a number of memorable 172 crashes, with three or four new pilots/friends flying together. maybe the pilot said hey let's try.... and spun it. A 172, even as a four seats occupied normal category plane will still be spin recoverable as long as within C of G limits, but it won't be easy as it was when loaded to the utility category limits.

Certified normal and utility category planes have been shown to meet all of the certification requirements, and those are described in the limitations and flight manual. Everything described as a normal procedure/maneuver has been shown to be able to be flown "without requiring unusual pilot skill nor attention', so I expect that a pilot licensed to fly that plane should be able fly that maneuver, at least safely - including spins.

I personally disagree with removing at least a spin entry demonstration from the training standards. I agree that a spin should be approached as an quasi aerobatic maneuver, but it is within the limitations for most utility category airplanes. I consider spin recovery training about like tailwheel training, get it if you can, it'll make you better at flying any airplane, whether you ever spin or wheel land again or not.....
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by trey kule »

BPF

Scenario based training....for ppl students. Somewhat like an SMS program for a one aircraft charter operator. Downsized from advanced training where it works well.

I can just see visualize some 20 year old instructor jumping all over that. “Grand Theft Airplane....“.

Kind of like the first indication of an impending stall, being a stall warning indication, or a buffet..If you are that far into a bad situation you are way behind the plane.

Other than that, I agree 100% with the rest of your post, BPF.

But Mr Fly was specifically asking a regulatory question and both of us kinda drifted.
What is the actual requirement , that one can be certain is not going to result in some official going ballistic about?

Pilot Dar..

I think you are missing the point. We are talking about pre solo here.
The student is not going tobe flying more than 1000 agl after solo until they have more dual.
What would be the point in teaching them that they should be high up to do this?
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by AuxBatOn »

trey kule wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:49 am
Pilot Dar..

I think you are missing the point. We are talking about pre solo here.
The student is not going tobe flying more than 1000 agl after solo until they have more dual.
What would be the point in teaching them that they should be high up to do this?
Being able to recognize when you could be in trouble is as important if not more than being able to get out of it. Teaching spins at low level may help avoiding them in the first place.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by trey kule »

Unless things have changed, spin training must be done a minimum of 2000 AGL, or higher if the AFM requires it.

But I agree that the aim should be to stay out of a bad situation. Easier than trying to get out of one. And things like making certain the student has precise airspeed control, and know enough to do a safe overshoot are more important, IMHO..pre solo, than teaching them spin recovery, from an intentional entry.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:01 am

Being able to recognize when you could be in trouble is as important if not more than being able to get out of it. Teaching spins at low level may help avoiding them in the first place.
At the risk of being rude teaching spins at low level is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not to mention being specifically prohibited by the CAR's and most POH's.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

trey kule wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:21 am Unless things have changed, spin training must be done a minimum of 2000 AGL, or higher if the AFM requires it.

But I agree that the aim should be to stay out of a bad situation. Easier than trying to get out of one. And things like making certain the student has precise airspeed control, and know enough to do a safe overshoot are more important, IMHO..pre solo, than teaching them spin recovery, from an intentional entry.
The biggest problem I see with todays students is they treat the rudder pedals as foot rests. If the airplane is stalled and yaw is prevented by effective use of the rudder the the airplane can not spin.

That is the lesson that needs to be drilled into low time pilots. If yaw is controlled as AOA is reduced, control can be quickly recover and you can save yourself even if you are close to the ground or worst case hit the ground under control. But and this is a big but we are now in the classic

"You should use your superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of your superior skills".

The recognition part is equally important as the hands and feet part but is IMO often ignored or glossed over.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by AuxBatOn »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:23 am
AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:01 am

Being able to recognize when you could be in trouble is as important if not more than being able to get out of it. Teaching spins at low level may help avoiding them in the first place.
At the risk of being rude teaching spins at low level is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not to mention being specifically prohibited by the CAR's and most POH's.
It is not what I am saying. Lessons conducted at altitude can be useful for situations at low level. The conditions that lead to a spin at high altitude are the same as the ones at low level.

Edit: I just corrected my typo. Apologies for the mis-understanding!!
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by AuxBatOn »

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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by rookiepilot »

I'd make a fair wager that many, if not most, stall spin accidents are base to final turns, with a nice gusty tailwind on base and commenced at too low an altitude. Pull the nose up, steepen the turn to avoid overshooting, and boom.

Not recoverable with even the nest technique at 3-400 AGL, at least I wouldn't want to try it.

IMO this scenario should be shown to every PPL student and drilled into them. The visual picture base to final with a big tailwind is quite different than a calmer day.

Be especially careful in a busy circuit, students. Resist the urge to hurry or "keep it in tight". Bad idea.

A bunch of extra speed must be maintained in that scenario for safety margins.

What can be gotten away with in a 172, as well, has been proven to be deadly in, say a Cirrus. That is a bad airplane to get slow in the pattern.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by trey kule »

The turn onto final scenario , I think, is generally is caused by the incorrect use of rudder to tighten the turn and thus cross controlling the aircraft. There is no need to add 10 knots for safety. Learn to fly a co ordinated turn, and know when to do an overshoot if you are not lined up properly. It is alesson that I don’t think is given much emphasis.

And TC’s demand that a missed should generate a CADORS in some cases puts pressure on pilots to salvage an approach.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

trey kule wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:21 am The turn onto final scenario , I think, is generally is caused by the incorrect use of rudder to tighten the turn and thus cross controlling the aircraft. There is no need to add 10 knots for safety. Learn to fly a co ordinated turn, and know when to do an overshoot if you are not lined up properly. It is alesson that I don’t think is given much emphasis.
Exactly right
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by the-minister31 »

Remember that what is essential to teach is the "incipient spin". Otherwise known as the spin entry, or aggravated stall.

The focus is clear, teach the guy to keep it straight and not stall and show them how to not make their situation worst if they @#$! up before they go alone. That's what TC wants.

In other words, it is essential that students understand how to avoid a stall (exercice 12), how to properly control the aircraft close to a stall (exercice 11) and how to recover from a stall (12 again), whether the wing drops or not (exercice 13) before the first solo.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

I'm curious, I don't think it's actually been brought up yet.

What is the argument for not teaching spin recovery before a first solo, aside from the possibility that it may not be a legal requirement?

I had an incipient spin turning base to final on my 11th solo flight 25 years ago, while still training in gliders, and I believe fully that it was the rather comprehensive spin training that saved my ass that day. I didn't understand what was happening exactly, just that both my left wing and the nose suddenly dropped and the stick got very mushy very quickly. I was able to recover only because it was drilled into me.

The point is - it could have just as easily happened on my first solo flight. But to be fair, I may be a lousy pilot.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by 2R »

The AC -61-67C answers the first part of your question , the second part is usually because the approach speeds of gliders are much closer to the stall than certified training aircraft .
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by digits_ »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:21 pm I'm curious, I don't think it's actually been brought up yet.

What is the argument for not teaching spin recovery before a first solo, aside from the possibility that it may not be a legal requirement?
That's a question worth asking.

The main reason, for me, would be when a student is learning to fly in an airplane type not certified for intentional spins, as mentioned in earlier posts. At that point, it's not only useless, but also detrimental to student progress.

More generally speaking, for the standard 172 flying school student, I'd consider it mostly a waste of time in the pre solo phase. Once the student has some basic skills, you're most likely working towards safe landings. The student also knows that the first solo is approaching. At that that point, when safely able, you need to get it over with to progress the learning curve. Students are generally either eager to solo, in which case other exercises won't get all the needed attention because they want to solo, or they are a bit afraid to solo, in which case extra exercises don't help addressing the elephant in the room: the First Solo.

Another reason to consider, is that stalls and spins rarely happen at an expected time when flying. When reading accident reports, the stalls and spins snuck up on the unfortunate pilot because he was distracted, either for no good reason or because he was dealing with an (un)related system failure. When students go on a first solo flight, the flight only lasts -hopefully- a few minutes. They are most likely watching everything in the airplane like a hawk. If a spin were to happen in that scenario, there is no chance they'll recover.

The chances for a stall and a spin happening at that point, is also so low, that the cons outweigh the possible pros in my opinion.

Demonstrating the incipient spin and wing drop in turn to final to a pre solo student can be very beneficial, depending on the student's character and attitude. It will most certainly have an effect on the student's confidence. It depends on which direction you want to modify the student's confidence whether or not you should ideally demonstrate it pre solo, and in which way you do it.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:26 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:21 pm I'm curious, I don't think it's actually been brought up yet.

What is the argument for not teaching spin recovery before a first solo, aside from the possibility that it may not be a legal requirement?
That's a question worth asking.

The main reason, for me, would be when a student is learning to fly in an airplane type not certified for intentional spins, as mentioned in earlier posts. At that point, it's not only useless, but also detrimental to student progress.

More generally speaking, for the standard 172 flying school student, I'd consider it mostly a waste of time in the pre solo phase. Once the student has some basic skills, you're most likely working towards safe landings. The student also knows that the first solo is approaching. At that that point, when safely able, you need to get it over with to progress the learning curve. Students are generally either eager to solo, in which case other exercises won't get all the needed attention because they want to solo, or they are a bit afraid to solo, in which case extra exercises don't help addressing the elephant in the room: the First Solo.
Okay, I can see both points there.
Another reason to consider, is that stalls and spins rarely happen at an expected time when flying. When reading accident reports, the stalls and spins snuck up on the unfortunate pilot because he was distracted, either for no good reason or because he was dealing with an (un)related system failure. When students go on a first solo flight, the flight only lasts -hopefully- a few minutes. They are most likely watching everything in the airplane like a hawk. If a spin were to happen in that scenario, there is no chance they'll recover.

The chances for a stall and a spin happening at that point, is also so low, that the cons outweigh the possible pros in my opinion.
And I disagree on this point - as stated, I believe it was spin training that saved my ass. However, it was 25 years ago so my memory may be murky, and it was in a glider, which as mentioned previously, lands closer to stall speed than powered craft.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by digits_ »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:47 pm
And I disagree on this point - as stated, I believe it was spin training that saved my ass. However, it was 25 years ago so my memory may be murky, and it was in a glider, which as mentioned previously, lands closer to stall speed than powered craft.
You did state it was your 11th solo flight. That's usually a time when new pilots start getting a bit complacent. Not saying that's what happened to you, but I do believe there is a bit of a different mindset between the 1st and 11th solo flight. You also said that you were flying gliders at that time. While technically still a first solo in a motorized airplane, I do think there is a diference between a "first solo in any airplane ever" and a "first solo in a motorized plane after having soloed in a glider".

There should be statistics about how many accidents, spin related or not, that occur during first solo flights. It would be interesting to read, and see if any of our theories hold up under scrutiny.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:47 pm
digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:26 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:21 pm I'm curious, I don't think it's actually been brought up yet.

What is the argument for not teaching spin recovery before a first solo, aside from the possibility that it may not be a legal requirement?
That's a question worth asking.

The main reason, for me, would be when a student is learning to fly in an airplane type not certified for intentional spins, as mentioned in earlier posts. At that point, it's not only useless, but also detrimental to student progress.

More generally speaking, for the standard 172 flying school student, I'd consider it mostly a waste of time in the pre solo phase. Once the student has some basic skills, you're most likely working towards safe landings. The student also knows that the first solo is approaching. At that that point, when safely able, you need to get it over with to progress the learning curve. Students are generally either eager to solo, in which case other exercises won't get all the needed attention because they want to solo, or they are a bit afraid to solo, in which case extra exercises don't help addressing the elephant in the room: the First Solo.
Okay, I can see both points there.
Another reason to consider, is that stalls and spins rarely happen at an expected time when flying. When reading accident reports, the stalls and spins snuck up on the unfortunate pilot because he was distracted, either for no good reason or because he was dealing with an (un)related system failure. When students go on a first solo flight, the flight only lasts -hopefully- a few minutes. They are most likely watching everything in the airplane like a hawk. If a spin were to happen in that scenario, there is no chance they'll recover.

The chances for a stall and a spin happening at that point, is also so low, that the cons outweigh the possible pros in my opinion.
And I disagree on this point - as stated, I believe it was spin training that saved my ass. However, it was 25 years ago so my memory may be murky, and it was in a glider, which as mentioned previously, lands closer to stall speed than powered craft.
From what you described you took immediate action to recover as soon as the glider started to depart controlled flight. You used spin avoidance actions not spin recovery actions so I think we are really saying the same thing. If you had to use a full spin recovery to recover from a spin then you would almost certainly have been to low to recover and probably not be writing this now.

Your instinctive actions to regain control as soon as the aircraft started to depart from controlled flight are exactly what students pilots should be taught, which in your case you evidently were even though it wasn’t called spin avoidance training, that is what it was.

You don’t have to see the world make 2 complete in the windshield turns while holding pro spin control to learn that, and so as I have stated “spin” training that is using positive spin entry control movements and then holding them to allow a spin to develop is negative training outside of a proper aerobatic course.
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:50 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:47 pm
And I disagree on this point - as stated, I believe it was spin training that saved my ass. However, it was 25 years ago so my memory may be murky, and it was in a glider, which as mentioned previously, lands closer to stall speed than powered craft.
You did state it was your 11th solo flight. That's usually a time when new pilots start getting a bit complacent. Not saying that's what happened to you, but I do believe there is a bit of a different mindset between the 1st and 11th solo flight. You also said that you were flying gliders at that time. While technically still a first solo in a motorized airplane, I do think there is a diference between a "first solo in any airplane ever" and a "first solo in a motorized plane after having soloed in a glider".

There should be statistics about how many accidents, spin related or not, that occur during first solo flights. It would be interesting to read, and see if any of our theories hold up under scrutiny.
Yeah I still have that logbook; it was my 11th solo flight, 3 days after my first. You may be correct in thinking I could have been complacent by then. Let's not forget that I was still young and stupid 25 years ago. Now, I'm just no longer young.

In my case specifically, I wanted more thorough spin training before soloing in a powered craft, because the memory of those two seconds is still as vivid as if it happened yesterday. I don't recall being afraid of my first solo flight in a 2-33 at the age of 16, but I sure as hell recall being afraid of my first solo flight in that Grob 115 at the age of 41. Perhaps I wouldn't have been so afraid in the latter case had it not been for the first, and therefore not be making this argument?

(hah, both first solos were in Grobs)

So by your argument, digits, spin training should happen shortly after the first solo flight, assuming that doing it beforehand would be detrimental (as would be the case if a student was training in a non spin certified aircraft)? Before complacency and ego become too much of a factor? In that case, how much less detrimental would it be, to undertake spin training just after a first solo, if it had to be done in a different aircraft, than it would be before a first solo, assuming that it must be done regardless?

This all does assume of course that we agree pre-solo spin training is good, if it can be done in the aircraft a student is currently training in...
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Re: Spins before solo?

Post by PilotDAR »

you took immediate action to recover as soon as the glider started to depart controlled flight. You used spin avoidance actions not spin recovery actions
Honest question; what's the difference? As soon as the aircraft departed controlled flight, the correct control was applied to recover a spin - that's a correctly executed spin recovery. To me, "spin avoidance" is preventing the aircraft ever increasing AoA, uncoordinated, slower than 1.2Vs - no departure from controlled flight is involved, just avoiding getting there (also good).

For the interest of the group, during the planning for a flight test to show compliance following modification of a Grand Caravan, TC asked for spins to be flown - so I was called (someone heard I'd done this before). After understanding the nature of the mod, I proposed that the spin characteristics would not be affected. After a few weeks of back and forth, TC offered a compromise to me: 'Don't have to spin, but had to demonstrate spin resistance. Okay, what does that involve? ('cause it's not really spelled out in the standard). I was to stall the airplane from a climbing 30 bank turn in both directions, at 75% power, with one ball out cross controlled. I mentioned that I thought this really would be a spin entry, but for not having to hold it in for a turn, I agreed. It turned out that to get one ball out in this configuration, it was pretty well full pedal anyway. The Caravan handled it just fine, dropped a wing just past horizontal the other way, and recovered with very little heading change, when I initiated recovery. The plane gave me ample warning I was approaching a stall, and avoidance would have been easy. And, recovery was easy too. I hope that all new pilots, at some point during their learning seek out basic training in spin recovery. Sure, not two turns in the windshield, but recognition, and prompt recovery, just to build confidence.

Now, if we're going to point an airplane horribly down, let it turn while were doing it, then recognize and recover a spiral dive, is a spin recovery that much more difficult to execute if well trained? Are there more spin accidents than spiral dive accidents? I've certainly heard of both....
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