Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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Castorero
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by challenger_nami »

Castorero wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:10 pm
challenger_nami wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:58 pm
Castorero wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:51 pm
Father, what you ask is not possible.
And I don’t take meds. so You take them for me, and I trust they work like Magic. Sounds like you enjoy a good medication here and there.

Plus, if you think you are right and I am the one who is wrong, prove me wrong with reason and logic beyond talking weird, father.

Nami... Filium meum :

Te Benedicto, Te Benedicto, Te Benedicto, In Nomine Patriis, et Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus, Amen.

Dominus Vobiscum

Father, you are taking this weird talk to a whole new level.

Oh wait, what’s that smoke .... WHY AM I CATCHING FIRE ..,..why am I being taken by demons ..... HELP, HELP, HELP FATHER



Seriously, get real man.
Don’t be an idiot with a personality disorder.


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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by the-minister31 »

photofly wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:42 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:58 pm Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.
Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.
Even though we disagreed earlier on the potential danger of a slip, I have to say, that was the best comment in this thread to this point in my opinion.

Here is my take on the OP's initial question. I know some won't agree on some points but it is a peraonnal opinion based on my experience.

OP : Your fear of low level slips is normal in my opinion. There is definitely a higher level of risk doing these manoeuvres at low altitude, because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs. You more than anyone would be well placed to talk about the dangers of an uncoordinated stall at low level.

It does not mean you shouldn't practice such exercices.
Increased risk just means you have to be more careful. I would guess that you know way more now than when you spun that glider years ago. Keep the nose down, get out of the slip if you are uncomfortable. Don't try something you haven't already practiced with your instructor. Keep the nose down!

From my experience, a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a volountary uncoordinated turn.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

the-minister31 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:28 pm
photofly wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:42 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:58 pm Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.
Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.
Even though we disagreed earlier on the potential danger of a slip, I have to say, that was the best comment in this thread to this point in my opinion.

Here is my take on the OP's initial question. I know some won't agree on some points but it is a peraonnal opinion based on my experience.

OP : Your fear of low level slips is normal in my opinion. There is definitely a higher level of risk doing these manoeuvres at low altitude, because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs. You more than anyone would be well placed to talk about the dangers of an uncoordinated stall at low level.

It does not mean you shouldn't practice such exercices.
Increased risk just means you have to be more careful. I would guess that you know way more now than when you spun that glider years ago. Keep the nose down, get out of the slip if you are uncomfortable. Don't try something you haven't already practiced with your instructor. Keep the nose down!

From my experience, a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a volountary uncoordinated turn.
I'll cede on the definition... the point was that low level slips and steep turns look and feel quite similar, in terms of how banked you are.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a voluntary uncoordinated turn.
I like that description. Many years ago, at the request of one of the members who has been participating in this discussion (and at the cost of a little tire rubber) I did demonstrate a final approach and landing in my 150 with full rudder applied all the way until the first mainwheel contacted, then straighten out. It was unusual, but not worrisome. As I did flare for the landing, I did approach the stall in this configuration without loosing control of the plane.
because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs.
Bear in mind that if you're controlling a slip, it is instantly recoverable, that's why I like it for drag modulation for precise approach path control. Flaps, once extended cannot be safely and effectively moderated for approach path control, a slip can.

Stalling while slipped is less good, but recoverable. While flight testing a modified Cessna Grand Caravan last year, I was required to demonstrate stalls to the break with 75% power, 30 bank each way, and slipping to one ball out (which I found is about full pedal). There was a wing drop at the point of the stall, but it was manageable in recovery. Yes, I used more altitude to recover than a coordinated stall would have taken, but not a lot more, it was not a spin.

It is wise to practice this up high, and you'll get more comfortable. Prior to wing flaps being common on GA planes, the slip was a primary technique for approach path control, no reason to give it up! I would agree that there are airplane types which would bite more if handled this way, which is why familiarization on new types you're going to fly is always a good idea...
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by photofly »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:46 pm
I'll cede on the definition... the point was that low level slips and steep turns look and feel quite similar, in terms of how banked you are.
If you think about it, you’ll agree that they look similar, but feel quite different. In a steep coordinated turn you are pressed straight down into your seat and you feel heavy. In a slip you have only 1g, and are slid or leaned to the side. Even in a slipping turn, the rate of turn is modest and the g barely more than 1.

Look the same - feel different.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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I've experimented at altitude entering a stall from either a skidding and slipping turn a while ago. The skidding turn produced a very abrupt wing drop and spin entry on my otherwise very benign Cherokee. On the other hand, I could not for the life of me produce a spin entry from a slipping configuration no matter how much I pulled. The high wing would drop and it's back flying again with the slightest release of the back pressure.

My question is... What needs to happen for a slipping turn to produce an "over the top" spin entry versus just correcting itself like how what I experienced? I'm guessing had I kept the rudder and back pressure in after the initial wing drop would it only then transition into the "over the top" entry? Has there ever been any documented base to final accidents that was a result of slipping (not skidding) turns?
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

photofly wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:12 am
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:46 pm
I'll cede on the definition... the point was that low level slips and steep turns look and feel quite similar, in terms of how banked you are.
If you think about it, you’ll agree that they look similar, but feel quite different. In a steep coordinated turn you are pressed straight down into your seat and you feel heavy. In a slip you have only 1g, and are slid or leaned to the side. Even in a slipping turn, the rate of turn is modest and the g barely more than 1.

Look the same - feel different.
I would agree, this is more correct. They look the same if you look out the side window or to the horizon (the horizon may be higher if you're keeping the nose down to unload the wings). The feel comes with experience and training though, while the look of it is what dominates to a pilot in training - or at least to me. To put it Freudian terms, the id is telling me they're the same while the ego is telling me they're not.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Pilotdaddy wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:10 am I've experimented at altitude entering a stall from either a skidding and slipping turn a while ago. The skidding turn produced a very abrupt wing drop and spin entry on my otherwise very benign Cherokee. On the other hand, I could not for the life of me produce a spin entry from a slipping configuration no matter how much I pulled. The high wing would drop and it's back flying again with the slightest release of the back pressure.

My question is... What needs to happen for a slipping turn to produce an "over the top" spin entry versus just correcting itself like how what I experienced? I'm guessing had I kept the rudder and back pressure in after the initial wing drop would it only then transition into the "over the top" entry? Has there ever been any documented base to final accidents that was a result of slipping (not skidding) turns?
Correct me if I'm wrong - a PA-140 is not certified for intentional spins?
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:15 pm Correct me if I'm wrong - a PA-140 is not certified for intentional spins?
The 140 is certified for intentional spins, subject to additional weight & balance and recovery informaion provided in Service Bulletin 753. I stand to be corrected, but I believe SB 753 was the result of several fatal spin accidents early in the 140's life.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:15 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong - a PA-140 is not certified for intentional spins?
As mentioned above, it is certified for intentional spins at the utility category. The SB referred to above also brought up something interesting in that the plane should be trimmed to a 96mph power off glide prior to the spin maneouver. Don't recall ever seeing that type of guidance in other planes prior.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

There is some very good discussion on this thread but one essential point has not been mentioned. Talking about slipping and skidding is not a lot of use if the pilot does not recognize uncoordinated flight.

Personally I think there are actually 3 states of uncoordinated flight , Slipping, Skidding, and Slopping. Slopping is when the aircraft is allowed to fly in an uncoordinated flight because the pilot is not aware the airplane is uncoordinated. I see a lot of slopping.....

I would suggest the OP start with up air work exercises to work at keeping the aircraft coordinated so that it becomes automatic. Steep turns, dutch rolls and roll about a point are all excellent exercises
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by PilotDAR »

Good point BPF,

I was slopping yesterday, while testing a C180 amphibian, following a float change, and ventral fin installation. For those pilots who are not truly appreciating the need to attend to the pedals during maneuvering, try this: Level flight at a slow cruise speed, and without using any pedal, roll back and forth 20 - 30 degrees angle of bank, at least twice, and watch the ball - it'll be sloshing (and so will you!). Do exactly the same thing again, while slightly leading the aileron application with pedal application, and again watch the ball - you will certainly see a difference!
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:15 am There is some very good discussion on this thread but one essential point has not been mentioned. Talking about slipping and skidding is not a lot of use if the pilot does not recognize uncoordinated flight.
That's not the problem. I recognize uncoordinated flight well enough for my stage of training I think (notwithstanding today - I was flying from the right seat for the first time and in a new type. Couldn't coordinate a turn to save my life). The problem is I feel like the aircraft will fall out of the sky at any moment while doing it, whether a steepish turn or full rudder slip. This is fine at altitude, because I know I can recover (I rather enjoy spins) - which is not the case close to the ground.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:33 pm The problem is I feel like the aircraft will fall out of the sky at any moment while doing it, whether a steepish turn or full rudder slip. This is fine at altitude, because I know I can recover (I rather enjoy spins) - which is not the case close to the ground.
Have you tried having your instructor just demo multiple full-rudder forward slips all the way to the flare? Even better if it's a slipping turn to final into a full forward slip the whole way down. Then let you have a go.

That and maybe some "tight" 360's on the downwind and 270's downwind to base.

Obviously you aren't oblivious to your issue, so just practise and repetition should really help you get it figured out.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

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GoinVertical wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:08 pm
Have you tried having your instructor just demo multiple full-rudder forward slips all the way to the flare? Even better if it's a slipping turn to final into a full forward slip the whole way down. Then let you have a go.
This is a great exercise. (It demonstrates) -- The aircraft is flying just fine, it is not stalled and won't (unless the nose is pulled up and airspeed degrades). It's simply a very high drag configuration, with a consequently steep approach angle. You cannot spin if the aircraft isn't stalled.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:28 pm
GoinVertical wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:08 pm
Have you tried having your instructor just demo multiple full-rudder forward slips all the way to the flare? Even better if it's a slipping turn to final into a full forward slip the whole way down. Then let you have a go.
This is a great exercise. (It demonstrates) -- The aircraft is flying just fine, it is not stalled and won't (unless the nose is pulled up and airspeed degrades). It's simply a very high drag configuration. You cannot spin if the aircraft isn't stalled.
This does sound like a good idea, I will suggest it. I'm quite OK with a gentle slip all the way to the flare, but not so much a full rudder slip. Given the right traffic and weather conditions I'm sure it would be doable. Thanks.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by rookiepilot »

A good way to think of a stall, which MUST be present for a spin to occur -- is angle of attack exceeding a critical value -- load factor is a related concept. ( I'm probably not the best one to explain it )

In a turn with a high wing loading, for example, with crossed controls, is when the risk of a spin exists, if close to the stalling speed of the aircraft. In a deliberate slipping turn, the nose would be down, and the wings unloaded.

My understanding is a spin IS possible from both a slip and a skid, but a skid would result in a much more violent event. Hence we read about base to final accidents in this configuration, where the aircraft gets too slow, steep bank, and additional inside rudder to "help". Boom....

However, in either event, the wings must be loaded up to where AOA is exceeded.

A F-18 obviously does 90 degree turns at a very high wing loading, but at a high airspeed, so the critical angle of attack of the wings are not exceeded. It's quite possible the fusalage is acting as a "wing" in such a turn. (AuxBat?)

Hence, it is very difficult if not impossible to stall, let alone spin, with the NOSE DOWN.

An exception would be severe wind shear. I landed once in Sedona, AZ once, when the wind was blowing 25-30. Sedona is on a big ridge, and is surrounded by even higher mountains.

On final in a 172 RG, at 70 KIAS, nose down, power on, descending in moderately rough air, 500 AGL, the stall warning screeched without warning and the nose dropped -- implying at least a 20 knot airspeed loss. I was wary of this, and advanced power immediately to fly out of it.

I learned later, landing in that direction wasn't advised, due to the unpredictable winds at that airport.

Someone please clarify if I'm wrong in my description on load factor / AOA in this context.
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Re: Steep Turns At Low Altitude

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:53 pm A good way to think of a stall, which MUST be present for a spin to occur -- is angle of attack exceeding a critical value -- load factor is a related concept. ( I'm probably not the best one to explain it )
A stall depends only on AoA, and nothing else. It will occur at any speed, any load factor, and any attitude, if the critical AoA is exceeded, and will not occur otherwise - correct me if I'm wrong.
A F-18 obviously does 90 degree turns at a very high wing loading, but at a high airspeed, so the critical angle of attack of the wings are not exceeded. It's quite possible the fusalage is acting as a "wing" in such a turn. (AuxBat?)
At a 90° bank, the only thing holding you aloft is thrust and inertia, and your load factor is infinite, if understand the physics correctly. But yes, you may be able to use the fuselage as an airfoil; I'm nowhere near that level of pilotage. Probably best to leave the physics of 90° turns for another thread.
Hence, it is very difficult if not impossible to stall, let alone spin, with the NOSE DOWN.
It is never impossible to stall. Difficult perhaps, given a competent pilot, but never impossible.

I want to thank everyone who has replied to my questions - this thread has turned from a specific question into a much more general "Help RedAndWhiteBaron with his fear of the ground" thread. Thank you.
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