Has anybody given up?

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photofly
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by photofly »

I, too, admire your tenacity, but I can’t help wondering what the frig is so difficult about flying a little airplane that it takes 300 pages to write it all down.
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newlygrounded
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by newlygrounded »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:34 pm I would agree.

First - Tuza, your story is truly inspiring. I honestly don't think I would have accomplished half what you did, were I in your shoes.

Second - newlygrounded... please keep in mind that putting your training on hold does not mean giving up entirely. Tuza's story is a testament to that. You can always come back and finish later. Please don't give up on the dream.
I'm really impressed by Tuza!

And thanks for reading through! Though at this point I don't even enjoy flying, the idea of renting on a weekend for fun sounds like crazy talk to me at this point, which is pretty crushing when you compare to what I'd say a year ago. :|
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altiplano
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by altiplano »

newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:20 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:44 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:37 am

A big issue for me is house prices always go up where I am, in 1 month they went up $100,000 and they kept going up the rest of the year. I honestly don't find flying even fun anymore but I'm not sure if that's just the burnout talking or is it a permanent thing.

This business chews people up and spits them out, it's not fair. To succeed you will have to work hard, get a few lucky breaks, at times maybe make shit money for significant responsibility, you'll probably get burned at least once, you might move across this country and back and have to live in podunk towns, but on the good side housing might not be all that expensive... and then again you still might not "make it."

If you can't handle not affording a house in the city of your choice today, you better get used to it, because you haven't even got your hypothetical first job yet, let alone your license, and nobody will be paying you much when you do.

So if you're going to go all "Woe is me, I'm burnt out and can't afford a house" and you don't even have your ppl yet, you should drop out now, forget about it, and find something else to do with your life.
I don't totally agree with what your saying but I'm gonna throw in the towel and call my school when they open to cancel the rest of my bookings
There you go... like really? You folded pretty easily...

It's not just going to come to you, you have to want it and go get it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's not easy to succeed in this career, particularly in this country, and it's highly competitive. You have to come to a reckoning of if you have what it takes, maybe you just did that... but think hard on it
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newlygrounded
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by newlygrounded »

altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:26 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:20 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:44 pm


This business chews people up and spits them out, it's not fair. To succeed you will have to work hard, get a few lucky breaks, at times maybe make shit money for significant responsibility, you'll probably get burned at least once, you might move across this country and back and have to live in podunk towns, but on the good side housing might not be all that expensive... and then again you still might not "make it."

If you can't handle not affording a house in the city of your choice today, you better get used to it, because you haven't even got your hypothetical first job yet, let alone your license, and nobody will be paying you much when you do.

So if you're going to go all "Woe is me, I'm burnt out and can't afford a house" and you don't even have your ppl yet, you should drop out now, forget about it, and find something else to do with your life.
I don't totally agree with what your saying but I'm gonna throw in the towel and call my school when they open to cancel the rest of my bookings
There you go... like really? You folded pretty easily...

It's not just going to come to you, you have to want it and go get it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's not easy to succeed in this career, particularly in this country, and it's highly competitive. You have to come to a reckoning of if you have what it takes, maybe you just did that... but think hard on it
Honestly the big issue for me is I don't enjoy flying anymore (is this normal/permanent?) Is it worth it to give up so much for a career where you're likely to get fired 2 or 3 times?

Also what percent of CPL grads actually get a job? I'm incredibly worried if I make it that far I'll be like one of the many people who hold useless university degrees.
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Last edited by newlygrounded on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by rookiepilot »

I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.

If the OP doesn't love flying enough to do it for free, maybe it isn't the right career.

Money isn't ever the right reason to choose a career.

I went into finance as a business, because I'm inately curious. I love to figure stuff out.

Eventually I became somewhat proficient -- after a long period of tuition.

Flying is a personal passion, my favourite flights are volunteering to help others.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
newlygrounded
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by newlygrounded »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:34 pm I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.
I don't know anyone who expects to jump into a comfortable position out of flight school, I've seen so many people burned by things like "pilot in waiting" Reading some other posts here, even many of the people who "made it" seem deeply unhappy.

Almost all the careers you listed above have a decent chance of actually ending up in a career, how many CPL's never get a job?
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by rookiepilot »

newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:39 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:34 pm I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.
I don't know anyone who expects to jump into a comfortable position out of flight school, I've seen so many people burned by things like "pilot in waiting" Reading some other posts here, even many of the people who "made it" seem deeply unhappy.

Almost all the careers you listed above have a decent chance of actually ending up in a career, how many CPL's never get a job?
I don't know.
Loads of starving lawyers, and subsidence level doctors, though. Look at the small business folks now, too. I'm one, having a horrid year. Just part of being in business.
Qualifying is only part of any journey. Tenacity is required, too.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:34 pm I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.
Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.

You can still be new to the field and be treated with respect and do work you were actually trained for. It doesn't have to be like this.

But hey, silly me still said "screw it", and move half way across the globe to beg bush operators for a job :rolleyes:

Aviation, a cruel mistress....
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:44 pm
Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.
LOL, back.

That is a classic wine and dine of new grads. Called, seduction. Then you sign on, and they bury you with 14 hours of work a day. They own you, bud.

That game is as old as the hills.

No free lunch exists, and surely not from any multinational firm.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by newlygrounded »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:44 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:34 pm I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.
Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.

You can still be new to the field and be treated with respect and do work you were actually trained for. It doesn't have to be like this.

But hey, silly me still said "screw it", and move half way across the globe to beg bush operators for a job :rolleyes:

Aviation, a cruel mistress....
Yeah I feel a lot of people here have an outdated view of other careers, if you're in a field with any sort of demand you're getting begged to apply for jobs that will give you 6 figures day 1 out of school (this isn't my goal, but just for reference)

Even during this pandemic, a lot of people I know are getting raises, meanwhile the opposite is happening in the aviation sector. If you're willing to do another job is the juice worth the squeeze? And for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:48 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:44 pm
Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.
LOL, back.

That is a classic wine and dine of new grads. Called, seduction. Then you sign on, and they bury you with 14 hours of work a day. They own you, bud.

That game is as old as the hills.

No free lunch exists, and surely not from any multinational firm.
I disagree, my engineer and business grad friends do all of 2 hours of work a day at most, and now from their own couch. Regardless everyone I know in the careers you mentioned have always been treated with respect. Speaking of being owned, none of them have had to sign a bond to stay for two years. But we're getting off topic at this point.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:48 pm Then you sign on, and they bury you with 14 hours of work a day. They own you, bud.

That game is as old as the hills.

No free lunch exists, and surely not from any multinational firm.
Some do, pay well above average, and were upfront about it.

Others don't. Advertised a 9 to 5 job, still paid well, and actually gave that schedule they promised.

They also never own you. No bonds.



You still don't see a difference with aviation? Getting a hangar tour was the most regal treatment I've ever experienced.


There is absolutely no need for the "paying your dues" in its current form. It happens because employers get away with it due to the ample supply of applicants. That's the only reason.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:58 pm
They also never own you. No bonds.

There is absolutely no need for the "paying your dues" in its current form. It happens because employers get away with it due to the ample supply of applicants. That's the only reason.
Oh, they own you all right....no bond, but in other ways. It's harder. Get a reputation in some fields as a whiner, and you're toast for advancement. Don't kid yourself about how cutthroat it is out there. These are small, small communities, and nothing is off the record.

And the reason for the unending supply of pilots is everyone is gunning for that 6 day, 500 k left seat to HKG or SIN.

Same reason for unending law school students, seeking that million dollar partnership.

Medicine, to become a million dollar top surgeon.

Same in my field.

Nothing new under the sun.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by newlygrounded »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:04 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:58 pm
They also never own you. No bonds.

There is absolutely no need for the "paying your dues" in its current form. It happens because employers get away with it due to the ample supply of applicants. That's the only reason.
Oh, they own you all right....no bond, but in other ways. It's harder. Get a reputation in some fields as a whiner, and you're toast for advancement. Don't kid yourself about how cutthroat it is out there. These are small, small communities, and nothing is off the record.

And the reason for the unending supply of pilots is everyone is gunning for that 6 day, 500 k left seat to HKG or SIN.

Same reason for unending law school students, seeking that million dollar partnership.

Medicine, to become a million dollar top surgeon.

Same in my field.

Nothing new under the sun.
Every single thing you've mentioned is worse in aviation. No doctors or lawyers pay to work but there are schemes were pilots do
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by altiplano »

newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:34 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:26 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:20 pm

I don't totally agree with what your saying but I'm gonna throw in the towel and call my school when they open to cancel the rest of my bookings
There you go... like really? You folded pretty easily...

It's not just going to come to you, you have to want it and go get it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's not easy to succeed in this career, particularly in this country, and it's highly competitive. You have to come to a reckoning of if you have what it takes, maybe you just did that... but think hard on it
Honestly the big issue for me is I don't enjoy flying anymore (is this normal/permanent?) Is it worth it to give up so much for a career where you're likely to get fired 2 or 3 times?

Also what percent of CPL grads actually get a job? I'm incredibly worried if I make it that far I'll be like one of the many people who hold useless university degrees.
Whatever. Flying is a good job. But it's a job which I ladder to achieve what I want in the rest of my life. I don't dream about it or go rent planes when I'm done, but I appreciate my life at work, there are a lot of worse jobs. But I appreciate my life away from work more.

Most people won't get a license, of those most won't get a job, of those most won't get to an airline, let alone a major airline.

Odds aren't great, but they aren't pure odds, you can stack them in your favour, the harder you work in the game, the smarter you work the game, the longer you're in the game, your odds on success improve. Flash in the pan failures are just that, didn't have the staying power...

Good luck.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by photofly »

newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:52 pm for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?
Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

photofly wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:30 pm Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.
On that point I will wholeheartedly agree.

Look, I'm still in training, but I can tell you this - this career takes dedication, and it does take more dedication than most, save perhaps for doctors and lawyers. Maybe marine biologists. If you don't love it, you're pursuing the wrong career - and there's nothing wrong with that. Choose a different one.

But - newlygrounded - here's something else to consider: You're asking for career advice on a pilot foum, in the midst of the worst blow to the industry since the Wright flight. Take the advice with a grain of salt.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:30 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:52 pm for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?
Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

My best friend's wife is a pharmacist at Shoppers Drug Mart. Most of her classmates in university got free or heavily subsidized tuition paid for by Shoppers if they agreed to work for Shoppers for a set period of time after graduation. If they left Shoppers, I believe they had to pay back a portion of that tuition.

So, it's essentially a bond the same way we have bonds in aviation: The company will pay for your training if you stick around for a few years.

They also didn't have a choice where they got to work their first job. Most had to move to small towns in S.W. Ontario where Shoppers determined there was a need for pharmacists. This is also similar to aviation in which you don't know what base you'll be assigned until groundschool.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by newlygrounded »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:04 am
photofly wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:30 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:52 pm for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?
Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.
And I'm sorry, but using the word "burnt out" in relation to something like flight training disrespects that very word.

Are you kidding us?

A lot of shit life can throw at you -- --- a lot more serious.
For someone who has made a post about depression you don't seem to be very good at standing in someone else's shoes. You don't know the sacrifices people make to do the things they do. A small river will carve out a huge valley given enough time.
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Re: Has anybody given up?

Post by AirFrame »

photofly wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:36 am Referring to the thread title, not many people who have "given up" are going still to be reading around this forum.
This.

Anyone flying on this forum has either had an easier time, or fought their way through to get where they are. It's easier for some people, due to money, natural ability, whatever. It's harder for others, for some of the same reasons (or lacks thereof). At the end of the day, flying isn't for everyone. You either want it or you don't, and you do what you have to or you don't.

I even know a lot of people who are happy in their careers who never considered flying. :)
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