What questions to ask and be cautious of when buying an aircraft?

[wannaflymore]

Hi Everyone.
Not sure where I should post this but I assume you guys can answer my questions anyway...
As I already explained here, I'm looking to buy my own aircraft to do my private licence and I have found a 1967 C172 I'm interested in.
It has 496.4 TSMOH and 2591 TTSN.
Being a newbie, my aviation culture is still very limited and I am not sure yet about the questions I should ask even before the first move for seeing the aircraft. I do have a few questions in mind but I'm sure there are a lot more that would be even more relevant.

- What are the essential questions to ask on the first contact with the owner before making the decision to see the aircraft?
- Once in front of the aircraft, what do I need to absolutely check? what can be easily hidden? Any clues, evidence, symptoms that will help me figure out any issues on the aircraft?
- Besides the Registration, CofA, journey Log Book, POH, Engine and Propeller docs, are there any other docs that should be provided?
- Has any of you been scammed and how, while buying an aircraft?
- Is it ok to ask who did the maintenance and get information from that person?
- I will do a check flight with a pilot friend of mine... what should we be cautious of while flying? What should be a red flag or immediate no-go?
- Basically, how does the process go when you buy an aircraft
-...

I'm sure I could ask a zillion questions but those are the first one I have for you and I hope I don't sound too ignorant or naive.
Thanks a lot for your help!!

[CpnCrunch]

All you need to ask is: send me pdf copies of the tech logs. Or, look at the logs yourself.

The main questions you want to know are: is there damage history, and how was it repaired? How often has it flown? Any outstanding A/Ds?

Pretty much everything you need to know you can find out from the logs. Then, if they look ok, find a reliable AME to do a prepurchase inspection, and they can check the physical condition.

The main red flag is a plane that doesn't fly much.

[final28]

Make sure you get a pre-buy inspection performed by a qualified AME, and not the one who has previously maintained the aircraft, before making a commitment. They can assist in examining previous maintenance records and identifying potential issues with the aircraft condition.

[photofly]

The most important question to ask yourself, before you contact the owner, is "Do I want to own a 1967 Cessna 172?"

Find yourself a competent friendly aircraft mechanic (AME) and get them involved.
You'll also want to see a record of Airworthiness Directives that have been complied with.

- I will do a check flight with a pilot friend of mine... what should we be cautious of while flying? What should be a red flag or immediate no-go?
- Basically, how does the process go when you buy an aircraft

Flying in the airplane is usually the last thing you'd do, after you've read through the logs, after your AME has done a pre-purchase inspection, after you've negotiated a price, and after you have a firm offer and acceptance, pending only confirmation that thing flies straight. It's not like you're going to use a test flight to see if you want a '67 172 - you should be firmly convinced that you do, before you even contact the owner.

The main red flag is a plane that doesn't fly much.

I don't agree. Most planes that are for sale haven't flown much in the last few years; that's why the owner has finally put them up for sale. But expect a rash of maintenance to do in the first few years, to make up for all the love and attention the little-flying previous owner didn't lavish on the airplane.

[ahramin]

There are a lot of resources out there that can help you make a decision on purchasing an aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi5DRGjveCI

https://copanational.org/en/buying-an-aircraft/

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/news-and-public ... ft-sort-of

The unfortunate thing is that you can diligently follow all the advice and still wind up with a total basket case. It's just not possible to learn 20 years worth of experience from a week of watching youtube.

As an example, take the pre-purchase inspection. Watch one video of horror stories and it's obvious why you need a pre-purchase inspection. So as a new buyer, you go out and hire a "reliable AME to do a pre-purchase inspection". They do that inspection and come back to you with a clean bill of health on the aircraft. Unfortunately, the vast majority of AMEs will simply do an annual inspection on the aircraft and report any airworthiness discrepancies. A pre-purchase inspection is at the same time less than an annual inspection but also much, much more. Less than 1% of AMEs go beyond this when doing one. Yesterday a friend of mine was complaining that he can't fly IFR in his aircraft even though the AME that did the pre-purchase "signed the aircraft off as IFR". Well AMEs cannot sign off an aircraft as IFR and knowing what is required for IFR is pilot knowledge, not AME knowledge. I have a whole bag of stories of pre-purchase inspections that missed +$5000 worth of work.

Anyway, I could go on and on but the simple fact is that for an average aircraft, you are far better off hiring a broker to find the aircraft, manage the pre-purchase, manage the paperwork, manage the delivery, and save you far more money than they will charge you.

Full disclosure, I'm an aircraft broker .

[photofly]

One hopes you can find an AME that knows the difference between a pre-purchase inspection, and an annual inspection. That would be something to discuss with the AME before you engage them.

They do that inspection and come back to you with a clean bill of health on the aircraft

Then they're not doing their job right, and not giving you what you asked for. A pre-purchase inspection should report on many things. It's not a go/no-go outcome.

I have a whole bag of stories of pre-purchase inspections that missed +$5000 worth of work.

If you're buying an old airplane like that, you want to budget about $10k for remedial work in the first couple of years. I can guarantee that no olld airplane about to be sold has been maintained in the condition it should have been, for the last few years. If you don't have to spend at least that amount, consider it a bonus.

[rookiepilot]

The main red flag is a plane that doesn't fly much.

I don't agree. Most planes that are for sale haven't flown much in the last few years; that's why the owner has finally put them up for sale. But expect a rash of maintenance to do in the first few years, to make up for all the love and attention the little-flying previous owner didn't lavish on the airplane.

Then the SMOH may mean little ---corrosion. Corrosion is a big deal when looking at a plane...

Start with logs, AD's...you will learn a lot about an aircraft's care.

[photofly]

Off the top of my head things to ask an AME to report on:

Engine: valve condition (via borescope), oil usage (pray the previous owner logged when he/she added oil), compressions, exhaust condition, starter ring, vacuum pump last changed when? fuel and oil hoses last changed when? Does it have an oil screen or spin-on oil filter? Any particles in the filter? Cracks in the crank case? How much oil does it leak? From where?
Engine mount tubing and welds: cracked? Corroded? Rubber Lord mounts cracked or sagged, or recently replaced?
Propeller: how old? tracks properly? Cracked or nicked? Corrosion? Approaching minimum limits for blade dimensions?
When were the spark plugs last replaced? Are the ignition harnesses in good condition? When was the air filter changed?
Electrical: is the alternator ok? What is the bus voltage while engine is running? What's the battery condition? When was it last replaced? Is it wet cell or sealed? Is there any corrosion around the battery box from leaked acid? How's the condition of terminals and wiring? Hopefully it's not aluminium cabling :-O
Flight controls: worn bushings/slides? control cables frayed? cable terminations ok? Control surface hinges worn? Surface movements correct and in limits? Trim tab loose? Control cable pulleys worn?
Fuselage and wings: corrosion (not if, it will have some, but how bad)? Check under the headliner for spar carry-through corrosion. Firewall damage?(172's have notoriously weak nose-gear attachment)
Avionics: cabling in good condition or a rats nest horror? Radio(s) working on all frequencies? Radio display segments all working?
Instruments: pitot/static inspection up to date? Transponder altitude reporting all ok? When were the attitude indicator / heading indicator / turn coordinator last overhauled? When was the vacuum filter last changed? Is the tach adequately accurate through the whole range of RPM?
Undercarriage and brakes: What's the tire condition, brake condition - pads and discs? are the master cylinders leaking/weeping? are the brake lines in good condition?
Fuel system: hoses ok or hard and brittle? fuel selector valve leaking/weeping? Fuel cells last replaced when? Fuel lines in wing last changed when? Fuel vent open or blocked? Fuel gauges adequately accurate? Correctly reading zero when only unusable fuel remains in the tanks? Has it been flown on mogas? Does the fuel bowl drain properly and seal properly? Any staining from fuel leaks?
Do the fuel cells trap water?
Flaps: travel smoothly, extension correct, tracks all straight? Flap indicator accurate?
Carburetor up to date with service bulletins (plastic vs. rubber float etc. etc.), one vs. two piece venturi yada yada. Does the carb heat control work properly? Throttle and mixture controls work through correct full range of movement?
Magnetos last overhauled when? Last inspected, when?4300 series or 4200 (obsolete - need replacing) Slicks? Or Bendix?
Seatbelts last replaced when?
Seat mechanism(s) work properly or all gummed up and jammed?
Seat rails in good condition or nearing end-of-life? (refer to Cessna seat rail AD for wear limits)
Windshield, side and rear windows in good condition? Crazed? Cracked?
Exterior plastics: wing tips, horizontal stablizer tips, tail cone: condition?
Belly drains clean and open, or clogged with mud and/or mouse shit?
Landing light working? Beacon? Strobes? Position lights?
Stall warning horn working?
What's the interior condition like? You shouldn't expect much from a '67, but, check under any seat covers etc. How are the carpets?
Paint: when was it last painted? Was it primed first? Is there filliform corrosion under the paint, anywhere?


Other people can probably throw in some more things to check.

[shaynemarshallporath]

I briefly perused some replies all good but then i thought ( if you go to fight an unfair lawsuit in court, would you represent yourself or hire a good lawyer) Well, for the first time in my life, i am forced to go to court about a residential matter and WILL get a lawyer.

So this thought came to me , Why not bring a person on board who can help you cradle to grave so to speak .
I have bought, fixed up and sold over 17 A/C and as an AME/ comm pilot and A/C business owner, i have the ability, knowledge and experience to greatly assist a buyer. You should find someone equivalent or more qualified than myself. ( there are MANY borderline "AMEs" out there)
Find someone like me to assist you from the very beginning, from the 3rd phone call to the info gathering, to the PPI and test flight and paperwork etc.
30+ yrs experience in doing this translates to an efficient, cost effective and risk reducing partner in what may be a costly, risky and life altering experience! Even having your AME talk to the seller for 30 Min on the phone could save you thousands !

[Bede]

Ask how much maintenance cost per year. If every year has been a $1000 annual and nothing more, there is a good chance that there is a good chance that there’s a bunch of deferred maintenance. Remember an annual inspection is just an inspection, not a guarantee that there are no snags.

Same thing goes for the last 5 log book entries that say “annual inspection completed...no faults found”.

[2R]

Suppose , that the seller is asking 100k .
Your AME finds snags that require 20 k to fix .
What would your offer to purchase be ?

[photofly]

There's no way to answer that question on the information given.

Is it being sold for $100k as a "project"? Is it being sold for $100k all in good working order? Is it the first day on the market? Or has it been listed on barnstormers.com for nine months? Is it being sold by a proud owner who thinks there's nothing to fix? Is it an estate sale? Is it on sale through a dealer, or privately? Did the owner fly it last week, or did she lose her medical two years ago? Is your AME quoting you $20k to "fix" the GPS to a brand new IFD550? Or $20k to fix the brakes and the fuel tank that leaks when it's more than half full? Or to remedy two cylinders whose compressions are 29/80? Or to comply with ADs that should have been done seventeen years ago?

[digits_]

Pro tip: if the seller is bragging in an ad how much money he spent on the last annual, you should at least subtract that amount from the asking price to find out the fair value

[ahramin]

I briefly perused some replies all good but then i thought ( if you go to fight an unfair lawsuit in court, would you represent yourself or hire a good lawyer) Well, for the first time in my life, i am forced to go to court about a residential matter and WILL get a lawyer.

So this thought came to me , Why not bring a person on board who can help you cradle to grave so to speak .
I have bought, fixed up and sold over 17 A/C and as an AME/ comm pilot and A/C business owner, i have the ability, knowledge and experience to greatly assist a buyer. You should find someone equivalent or more qualified than myself. ( there are MANY borderline "AMEs" out there)
Find someone like me to assist you from the very beginning, from the 3rd phone call to the info gathering, to the PPI and test flight and paperwork etc.
30+ yrs experience in doing this translates to an efficient, cost effective and risk reducing partner in what may be a costly, risky and life altering experience! Even having your AME talk to the seller for 30 Min on the phone could save you thousands !

Exactly. Any AME should be able to inspect the plane and advise you on its current airworthiness status. Buying a plane requires much more information than whether or not it is currently airworthy.

[digits_]

I briefly perused some replies all good but then i thought ( if you go to fight an unfair lawsuit in court, would you represent yourself or hire a good lawyer) Well, for the first time in my life, i am forced to go to court about a residential matter and WILL get a lawyer.

So this thought came to me , Why not bring a person on board who can help you cradle to grave so to speak .
I have bought, fixed up and sold over 17 A/C and as an AME/ comm pilot and A/C business owner, i have the ability, knowledge and experience to greatly assist a buyer. You should find someone equivalent or more qualified than myself. ( there are MANY borderline "AMEs" out there)
Find someone like me to assist you from the very beginning, from the 3rd phone call to the info gathering, to the PPI and test flight and paperwork etc.
30+ yrs experience in doing this translates to an efficient, cost effective and risk reducing partner in what may be a costly, risky and life altering experience! Even having your AME talk to the seller for 30 Min on the phone could save you thousands !

Exactly. Any AME should be able to inspect the plane and advise you on its current airworthiness status. Buying a plane requires much more information than whether or not it is currently airworthy.

Okay, I'll start by saying I have a healthy skepticism towards brokers and other similar professions. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. How could a broker save me money while purchasing a small airplane?

I'd say the only thing that matters is the condition of the airplane. While not every AME might be inspecting an airplane in as much depth as you'd like, I'd wager the average AME would inspect an airplane much better than the average broker.

The other items mentioned: organizing a test flight, delivering the plane, talking to the owner... all seem to be matters of convenience. I fail to see how one would save money by getting this done via a broker instead of arranging it oneself.

[CpnCrunch]

Okay, I'll start by saying I have a healthy skepticism towards brokers and other similar professions. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. How could a broker save me money while purchasing a small airplane?

I'd say the only thing that matters is the condition of the airplane. While not every AME might be inspecting an airplane in as much depth as you'd like, I'd wager the average AME would inspect an airplane much better than the average broker.

The other items mentioned: organizing a test flight, delivering the plane, talking to the owner... all seem to be matters of convenience. I fail to see how one would save money by getting this done via a broker instead of arranging it oneself.

I used a broker for my last purchase (Mike Wilton from FlightSimple). I didn't plan to use a broker, it just so happened that the plane I wanted to buy was being sold via FlightSimple. There's a lot of overpriced junk out there, and this was the only plane I'd seen in about a year that met my requirements, and it was properly priced. He also made the buying process work very smoothly, by sending my pdfs of all the logs, helping to arrange ferry flights, pre-purchase inspection (I decided on the AMO), test flight, etc.

I have a whole bag of stories of pre-purchase inspections that missed +$5000 worth of work.

Last year I did a prepurchase on a plane with "no damage history". The AME (literally a guy in a van) who did that person's prepurchase didn't report any damage history. I took a look at the last 20 years of logs, didn't spot any red flags, and asked my AME to do a prepurchase. He discovered that it had flipped over in a windstorm and had had major repairs. So the guy in the van hadn't even bothered to notice the major repair report.

[TalkingPie]

I'll take a swing and say that an AME can fix things that are broken, but there's no guarantee that he can/will accurately assess the overall condition of a plane, knows the context of the buying/selling market and where good deals can be found, knows in detail the strengths and weaknesses of various models and model years within a model, or that he will spend the time to thoroughly vet the paperwork. I'm sure that there are AMEs who fit this description, and if you know one of them whom you can trust, sounds like they'd be an excellent resource.

I've never bought or sold a plane, but my experience with other things mechanical suggests to me that there's definite value in having someone you trust who has buying/selling/owning experience in your corner when you're considering a plane. As a new PPL holder, I personally don't believe I have anywhere near the knowledge or experience required to properly assess a plane, and I have trouble imagining that any other new pilot would, either. After all, we're talking about something that weighs only half as much as a car, costs $400k+ to buy new, and in this case is now over 50 years old.

I'm skeptical of brokers, too, but we're not talking about a real estate agent who took a 3 month course and doesn't do much more than turn on the lights in the bathrooms, tells you when the counters were replaced, and calls the notary for you.

[photofly]

I'm skeptical of brokers, too, but we're not talking about a real estate agent who took a 3 month course and doesn't do much more than turn on the lights in the bathrooms, tells you when the counters were replaced, and calls the notary for you.

How do you know? Unlike for real estate, there's not even a three month course for being an aircraft broker. Even you could call yourself one tomorrow.

[wannaflymore]

Alright guys, well, thank you so much for your help, advice and opinions... not easy to make your own when you get so many but at least that gives me some material to work from and with. I couldn't hope for better help.
I got more info about the aircraft and I even got pictures and videos.
So the aircraft is a 1967 C172, H model, and honestly judging from the pictures and videos, you'd never think it's that old. Super clean both interior and exterior. Dash panels not worn out, seats are clean, windows are clean and seals are holding together, not falling apart like I"ve seen on some AC.
No stains or mold on the ceiling and fabrics.
Equipped with :

• 2 radios with an audio panel
  Mav 1700 Nav com with VOR
  Garmin GNC 250 COM GPS
  king ADF kr 86
  Narco at 1560 TSO transponder and encoder
  Insight strike finder
  Avionics master switch
  AKC 121.5 ELT
  Carb temp Gauge
  Manifold Pressure gauge
  Strobes
  Wheel fairings
  Window covers

• Full overhaul done in 2014 with 496.4 TSMOH and 2591TTSN.
  Propeller inspection done last year
  Annual all freshly done.

The aircraft was in a hangar until it got listed last september when it was moved outside for better exposure.

Now I'm going to refer to your advice to ask more questions but I'm interested in your thoughts about all this...
Thanks again and special thanks to PhotoFly for the loooong check-list

[digits_]

It all depends on what they are asking for it. 500 hours SMOH in 6 years is pretty good, seems to suggest it got flown regularly. What type of engine?

There is a whole topic about upcoming mandatory ELT upgrades, so you'll probably have to do that soon. Not too much of a major expense, roughly 1000 dollars.

If you are planning on IFR flying in the future, you'll probably want to install a pretty expensive GPS in there, and an ADSB transponder if you want to fly in the US (and down the road Canada).

If you're looking at a VFR training plane, the equipment seems to be ok.