Cost for Private Pilots Licence in Canada for International Students

[photofly]

Also, even though the minimum is 45 hours required by Transport Canada. On average students take 65 hours to complete the licence.

The average, according my FOI request to TC, is 71 hours, at the point of flight test pass.

Hopefully the rest of your video is better researched!

[CaptainKirk]

Actually the average is 65 hours. Several big flight schools in Canada also advertise it on their website.

[digits_]

Actually the average is 65 hours. Several big flight schools in Canada also advertise it on their website.

So you prefer data on a commercial website over official independent data from the government? Interesting research strategy.

[AirFrame]

So you prefer data on a commercial website over official independent data from the government?

I think you're being far too generous in your wording. The difference here is between a marketing claim by a flying school, and actual numbers by the government organization that has sole responsibility for recording them.

The flying school has everything to gain by suggesting that they can get you a license in less hours (65) than the national average (71). Transport Canada has no incentive to mis-report that number at all.

[photofly]

Thanks for the information. I’ll fix that in the next recording!

You’re most welcome.

Here’s the data:
viewtopic.php?p=1004490#p1004490

Note that is the time at flight test: it doesn’t include any extra hours still required to make up, for example, the instrument flight experience. It also doesn’t include the flight test itself, typically 1.4 to 1.6 hours, for which the student must also pay.

Like I said, I hope the rest of your video is better researched!

[goldeneagle]

I think you're being far too generous in your wording. The difference here is between a marketing claim by a flying school, and actual numbers by the government organization that has sole responsibility for recording them.

The flying school has everything to gain by suggesting that they can get you a license in less hours (65) than the national average (71). Transport Canada has no incentive to mis-report that number at all.

I would be somewhat surprised if the school cannot push folks thru in a timeframe shorter than the overall average, assuming that person is dedicated to getting it done. Use the example of my father as one to skew the averages. Was living in a small town, bought a C-150 shortly after he started his training, then flew it for years with a student permit. He had on the order of 400 hours when he finally wrote the test and passed a flight test, but in the interim he always said, why bother. My mother had no interest in going flying with him, most of his friends that were interested in flying had a license and an airplane. He just didn't see a need to write a test and do a flight test until such time as the school no longer had full time staff at the airport to 'sign him out' any time he wanted to go out in the 150.

I would be another one that skewed the average a lot. I started flying at 16, intended to get a commercial license, bought an airplane before I had the private. With written and flight test passed, I had to wait till I was 17 for the license to be issued, by then I had the 200 hours required for the commercial because I flew my plane a lot to build up time. After I had the ppl and the required 200, sold the plane and used the money to fund cpl course. Once done the cpl course, I was back in the waiting game, license could not be issued until my 18th birthday, did the multi and ifr while waiting. I would have done an instructor course too, but a cpl is a pre-requisite for starting the instructor course.

I think 71 may well be the average of all students, but if you remove all the special cases of folks that had hundreds of hours by license day for whatever reason they didn't just charge thru and finish it, you will end up with a somewhat lower average.

[photofly]

Of course. With appropriate will, 100% of students can be better than average.

Seriously, though, once you start discounting the “special cases” on an ad-hoc basis, you are introducing your own personal biases. There is a large cohort of pilots who pass their test at 45 hours, in the air cadets, to match every “200 hour PPL wonder” such as yourself.

On the subject of your father: Why bother taking a flight test? Because every single one of his flights using a SPP (and for that matter your flights) that wasn’t strictly a training flight under the direct supervision of an instructor was outside the privileges of his student permit, unlawful, and uninsured. If an inspector had occasion to examine his paperwork, he’d be in a world of trouble, and if he had an accident, he’d be in a world of legal and financial shit.

[AirFrame]

I think 71 may well be the average of all students, but if you remove all the special cases of folks that had hundreds of hours by license day for whatever reason they didn't just charge thru and finish it, you will end up with a somewhat lower average.

Transport's numbers will of course include all outliers. But the school's numbers may not. I still think it's likely that they just knock 5 hours off the average to make it look "better than average", but it's possible they are using their own averages. Or they are removing that 5 hours as a way of saying, "Hey, if you're serious about getting a license and not faffing about for 10 years, you can do it in 65 hours."

[digits_]

I think 71 may well be the average of all students, but if you remove all the special cases of folks that had hundreds of hours by license day for whatever reason they didn't just charge thru and finish it, you will end up with a somewhat lower average.

Transport's numbers will of course include all outliers. But the school's numbers may not. I still think it's likely that they just knock 5 hours off the average to make it look "better than average", but it's possible they are using their own averages. Or they are removing that 5 hours as a way of saying, "Hey, if you're serious about getting a license and not faffing about for 10 years, you can do it in 65 hours."

Well, if all schools are doing that, at least one is lying!

The original statement was that 65 was the industry average, which has been proven incorrect.

[photofly]

It's very straightforward.

If a school says it measures the average time taken by its own students to get a PPL and it's 65 hours, then they should say that. If they're deducting seven hours from the national average, because they expect you to get a licence in 65 hours, they should say that. If they are quoting the average adjusted for some unspecified outilers, they should say that's what they're doing. But if they merely say the average hours to get a PPL is 65, then they're lying. And if they're lying about that, then what else are they lying about?

[goldeneagle]

On the subject of your father: Why bother taking a flight test? Because every single one of his flights using a SPP (and for that matter your flights) that wasn’t strictly a training flight under the direct supervision of an instructor was outside the privileges of his student permit, unlawful, and uninsured. If an inspector had occasion to examine his paperwork, he’d be in a world of trouble, and if he had an accident, he’d be in a world of legal and financial shit.

You are making multiple huge assumptions there. But just to be clear, I did mention that it was a small town up north. The flying school owner was a family friend who happened to operate the local flight school, and lived in a home (with the school office in the same building) along with his wife and kids at the airport. When I only had an SPP, was always somebody there to 'supervise', same for my pop. Heck, after I got the instructors rating, for one summer I was the one giving approvals for him to go take the 150 out.

Just another FWIW, the year I had my SPP, when transport arrived in the KingAir to do a base inspection on the local outfit, they did ask for me to bring out the logbook, and they went thru it. At the time I had about 90 hours, 60 of which were in my own airplane. Much to the surprise of the inspectors, the school had a signout record for all but one of the flights listed in my journey log, and that one was written off as 'an oversight'.

But feel free to continue getting your tits all in a tangle because small town 702/703 does things a bit differently than your run of the mill big city puppy mill.

Wanna get really wound up, my old ragwing Aeronca Chief had no electrical system at all. I was 16 years old, flying an aircraft that used the old fashioned armstrong starter (yeah, every time I went flying, I hand propped it), then proceeded to fly around NORDO. I landed in farmers fields, and in a meadow near a fishing hole that produced great rainbows regularly. And to really get you wound up, I did all of this with the blessings of a Class 1 instructor, the same one that did my instructors rating right after I got the cpl.

[photofly]

I don't think you understand the regulations surrounding the permit that you were using.

401.19 (1) The holder of a student pilot permit may act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft of the category for which the permit is endorsed if
..
(a) the flight is conducted for the purpose of the holder’s flight training;

(d) the flight is conducted under the direction and supervision of a person qualified to provide training toward the permit, licence or rating for which the pilot-in-command experience is required; and

So, the SPP can only be used - for training flights, under the direction of an instructor (i.e. the instructor directs you what to do) and if you need the PIC experience.

I'm sorry you think that rules only apply big cities. As far as I know, the same rules apply across Canada, including small towns. (Why you think that the FTU owner is friend has any relevance to the rules, or even where he or she lives, you'll have to explain.) I get that you think what you did was ok. But as you wrote yourself: "what's the point": the point is, a desire to follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, you needn't bother getting a licence at all.

[photofly]

double post

[digits_]

So, the SPP can only be used - for training flights, under the direction of an instructor (i.e. the instructor directs you what to do) and if you need the PIC experience.

It would be mighty hard though for anyone to prove a certain student did *not* need the extra PIC experience.

[photofly]

So, the SPP can only be used - for training flights, under the direction of an instructor (i.e. the instructor directs you what to do) and if you need the PIC experience.

It would be mighty hard though for anyone to prove a certain student did *not* need the extra PIC experience.

Perhaps in this case they did.

At any rate, it would be interesting to have goldeneagle declare on the record that he baldly didn't need the training flights and was knowingly contemptuous of the restrictions on the SPP.

[goldeneagle]

At any rate, it would be interesting to have goldeneagle declare on the record that he baldly didn't need the training flights and was knowingly contemptuous of the restrictions on the SPP.

I was building the time required for a commercial license, both my instructor at the time, and the transport inspectors had no issue with that. The reason I didn't have a PPL was a technicality around age, had passed written and flight tests already, was simply waiting on a birthday to be issued the PPL. I dont really care what you think of it, a lot has changed over the years since then. Bottom line, there was a Class 1 instructor 'supervising', and he took the time to head out with me in the little ragwing, instructed me on things like landing in a farmers field, landing in a meadow by a fishing hole, we even landed on gravel bar in the river once. He said more than once, if I'm going to fly 200 hours in a year, may as well spend that time learning stuff, no point just flying around and looking out the window.

Maybe in your world it's normal for an instructor to just focus on a few pre-canned lessons in a designated practice area and have no real interest in the students or anything outside of the puppy mill route to a pilot license, but it was different for us 45 years ago in a small town. Aside from all the designated exercises, we actually went places and did things with our airplanes, and instructors were happy to do more than just the basics found in a few canned lessons.

[photofly]

Double post

[photofly]

At any rate, it would be interesting to have goldeneagle declare on the record that he baldly didn't need the training flights and was knowingly contemptuous of the restrictions on the SPP.

I was building the time required for a commercial license, both my instructor at the time, and the transport inspectors had no issue with that. The reason I didn't have a PPL was a technicality around age, had passed written and flight tests already, was simply waiting on a birthday to be issued the PPL.

You qualified for a PP-R immediately and could have applied for a PPL on your seventeenth birthday, with no additional paperwork. A PPL flight test pass and PPAER pass both count towards a recreational permit too.

Your 65 hours of CPL training can’t begin until you have a PPL anyway, so none of the hours you were logging would have counted towards that. The balance of the 200 hours (100 PIC) are not required to be supervised by an instructor so having an instructor sign you out for them is a bit of a joke, really.


Was your father too young for a PPL too?


Moreover, since you say you’d already passed your PPL flight test when you got all those extra hours, you wouldn’t be an outlier at all: the figures I quoted from TC were the hours reported at the flight test.

[rookiepilot]

Thread reminds me of the English debate the other night:

“Ms. Paul, I won’t take lessons in caucus management from you.” — Trudeau, replying to accusations that he removed key women from his caucus.”

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/kelly- ... impressive

[Conflicting Traffic]

You qualified for a PP-R immediately and could have applied for a PPL on your seventeenth birthday, with no additional paperwork. A PPL flight test pass and PPAER pass both count towards a recreational permit too.

You raise some valid points about the misuse of the SPP. But the PP-R didn't exist until ~1996 (I can't recall if it came in with the CAR's or if it was finalized shortly after), so it's not really applicable to goldeneagle's situation.