Float School will not sign ADB until extra fee is paid?

[PilotY]

Hi all, I'm still quite new to the aviation world and I've never been one to understand mounds of paperwork. So hopefully you all can help me understand what's going on here.

I recently completed my float rating at a flight school that is not my main one. I finished the rating late in the day, as such, the "authorized person" was not in attendance to sign the ADB or Application Form. I paid the TC Licensing fee, and left. Fast Forward to the next day, and I realize that I actually DON'T have a float rating because nothing is in my ADB. Considering TC is backlogged on license stickers (I'm now waiting on 3, my multi sticker is going on 5 months now), and considering that exemption NCR 020 2021 is currently in effect, I figured it prudent to at least get my book signed with a temporary rating. There is a possibility I may get to fly a seaplane as well in the somewhat near future, too.

Talking to my flight school administrators, they told me that they can sign it, so long as the Float School sends them copies of the instructor licenses and application form. Great! I ask the float school for the documents, and this is where the problems begin. The application form they sent me still had no authorized signature on it, so my school said they can't sign. Alright, I ask for a completed copy. They tell me that it shouldn't matter. Relenting, I say that it's alright, just when they do get the form completed, I'd like to have a copy. Then they tell me "our authorized person requires 50$ cash to sign off ratings". Um, what? That wasn't disclosed in the price! I ask if this means they haven't even turned in my Application to TC. They tell me "We can send the application to transport without the 50$, it's only to have the book signed off."

Something about this doesn't feel right to me. Especially since they mentioned cash lol. I haven't experienced this at my own flight school. Unless they are just eating the cost? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just being stupid. Anyways, thanks.

[digits_]

Authorized persons are not being paid by TC. Yet they still have costs to send in documents to TC. Some regions require in person meetings for certain sign offs. They aren't supposed to charge you anything, but they are also under no obligation to sign off your documents.

It's a symptom of a sucky service by TC.

Which AP are you trying to get to sign off the float rating: the one linked to the float rating flight school, or the one linked to your other flight school?

[PilotY]

Authorized persons are not being paid by TC. Yet they still have costs to send in documents to TC. Some regions require in person meetings for certain sign offs. They aren't supposed to charge you anything, but they are also under no obligation to sign off your documents.

It's a symptom of a sucky service by TC.

Which AP are you trying to get to sign off the float rating: the one linked to the float rating flight school, or the one linked to your other flight school?

Ah I see. This makes some more sense. Odd considering that I've already paid TC a licensing fee, but whatever I guess lol.

I was trying to get my own flight school to sign off, as they said they would be able to given the documents. The float school is not providing them.

[Bede]

AP's usually charge for the service. $50 is about right. If the AP does their job properly, it takes around 30 min for a float rating and up to 2 hrs for a CPL.

Maybe your float school doesn't have an AP on staff. There's no reason though that you can't fill out the Application for Endorsement of a Rating form and have your instructor sign the bottom. Then give everything to the AP.

[photofly]

They aren't supposed to charge you anything, but they are also under no obligation to sign off your documents.

Actually I think it’s the other way around.

[digits_]

They aren't supposed to charge you anything, but they are also under no obligation to sign off your documents.

Actually I think it’s the other way around.

Do you have a reference?

I don't have any, but that's what I was told by our AP.

[Bede]

They aren't supposed to charge you anything, but they are also under no obligation to sign off your documents.

Actually I think it’s the other way around.

That’s correct.

[digits_]

They aren't supposed to charge you anything, but they are also under no obligation to sign off your documents.

Actually I think it’s the other way around.

That’s correct.

I can just phone up any random AP and they are obligated to issue my licenses (assuming the paperwork is in order) in exchange for a fee?

[yhz41]

Actually I think it’s the other way around.

That’s correct.

I can just phone up any random AP and they are obligated to issue my licenses (assuming the paperwork is in order) in exchange for a fee?

Yes sir

[photofly]

Actually I think it’s the other way around.

That’s correct.

I can just phone up any random AP and they are obligated to issue my licenses (assuming the paperwork is in order) in exchange for a fee?

Obligated is perhaps a bit strong, but they’re not supposed only to sign off for their own flight school, for example.

[digits_]

Learn something new every day! Amazing how quickly false info spreads.

Thanks all!

[Aviatard]

That’s correct.

I can just phone up any random AP and they are obligated to issue my licenses (assuming the paperwork is in order) in exchange for a fee?

Obligated is perhaps a bit strong, but they’re not supposed only to sign off for their own flight school, for example.

Obligated is the correct word. From the Authorized Persons Policy Manual:

3.1 AUTHORIZED PERSON’S ROLE
(1) The Authorized Person’s role is to provide licensing services to the aviation community in accordance with the privileges outlined on their Letter of Accreditation.
(a) While the AP is exercising the privileges of their delegation they are representing Transport Canada and not the flight training unit where they work. As a result, the AP is expected to provide services to any applicant, including individuals who are not students at the AP’s flight training unit.

[Bede]

Learn something new every day! Amazing how quickly false info spreads.

Thanks all!

You weren't out to lunch. I recall when I was an AP 20 years ago that we weren't supposed to charge a fee. Low and behold no one signed up ..m

[photofly]

I can just phone up any random AP and they are obligated to issue my licenses (assuming the paperwork is in order) in exchange for a fee?

Obligated is perhaps a bit strong, but they’re not supposed only to sign off for their own flight school, for example.

Obligated is the correct word. From the Authorized Persons Policy Manual:

3.1 AUTHORIZED PERSON’S ROLE
(1) The Authorized Person’s role is to provide licensing services to the aviation community in accordance with the privileges outlined on their Letter of Accreditation.
(a) While the AP is exercising the privileges of their delegation they are representing Transport Canada and not the flight training unit where they work. As a result, the AP is expected to provide services to any applicant, including individuals who are not students at the AP’s flight training unit.

Expected to, not obliged to. Obligated isn't the correct word.

[Aviatard]

Obligated is perhaps a bit strong, but they’re not supposed only to sign off for their own flight school, for example.

Obligated is the correct word. From the Authorized Persons Policy Manual:

3.1 AUTHORIZED PERSON’S ROLE
(1) The Authorized Person’s role is to provide licensing services to the aviation community in accordance with the privileges outlined on their Letter of Accreditation.
(a) While the AP is exercising the privileges of their delegation they are representing Transport Canada and not the flight training unit where they work. As a result, the AP is expected to provide services to any applicant, including individuals who are not students at the AP’s flight training unit.

Expected to, not obliged to. Obligated isn't the correct word.

Well ok if you want to split that hair that way. I think if TC expects you to do something and you don’t, there may be consequences. That seems like an obligation to me. (For the anti-whatever crowd that means something bad may happen to you.)

[photofly]

I don't feel like I'm the one splitting hairs, and I'm definitely not the one repurposing the phrase "expected to" into "obliged to". It was open for TC to use your wording, and they didn't.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I would suggest sending in a complaint to TC. The AP’s are Ministers delegates, that is they represent the Transport Minister when performing AP duties. If you are not happy with the response from an AP and are unsuccessful with a direct appeal to them then your only recourse is to complain to TC

[gustind]

I would suggest sending in a complaint to TC. The AP’s are Ministers delegates, that is they represent the Transport Minister when performing AP duties. If you are not happy with the response from an AP and are unsuccessful with a direct appeal to them then your only recourse is to complain to TC

Spot on.

If I remember correctly from when I was an AP, if we refused a license or rating after receiving an application, we were to notify the regional office.

[photofly]

If you process a formal application and reject it, then you have to notify Transport Canada. That's because the applicant has the formal right to request a review of your decision (a decision that is in fact the Minister's decision, for it is on the MInister's behalf that you decide), and a registered notification letter has to be sent, by law. See section 6.71(2) of the Aeronautics Act for details.

That's not saying that if you're not available to see an applicant, they refuse to pay your fee, you notice they haven't got the hours and tell them (so they withdraw the application) or they don't know who you are so they never ask you (AP's walk amongst the living sight unseen... your wife or daughter may be one and you'd never know) you are required to dob yourself in for punishment.