Lease aircraft to schools or Block time??

[3wannabies]

Hi everyone,
I am looking at buying an aircraft, probably a 172 or Cherokee for my son's time building.
Since the prices are crazy these days, I was contemplating leasing it to the local school or sell block time to at least get some money out of it.
Does anybody has had experience with either or any recommendations on how to do it properly?
Thanks,

[CpnCrunch]

The first question you want to ask yourself is: do you want random students flying your plane and bashing the crap out of it. Another option is to rent block time to pilots you trust.

[digits_]

If you lease it to a school, then what's the point of owning the aircraft? Might as well rent, and it will be much cheaper. Note that in this set up, the school has full control of the airplane, as they are leasing it from you. They decide who performs maintenance, what gets changed etc. They might consult with you, but in the end they have operational control. Of course, the threat if you cancelling the lease might make them more agreeable to your requests.

Selling block time to other pilots might be a better way to go, if you know them well. Agree on who is responsible for maintenance away from base, or what happens if something major break, or if the other pilot screws up etc. Not a fun conversation, but necessary.

[photofly]

Unless you are buying it from an existing FTU, the cost of installing a newly bought old Cessna 172 on an approved maintenance schedule so that it can be operated in commercial service will be prohibitive, especially for a temporary arrangement.

It’s an enormous amount of maintenance paperwork and headache for an FTU to adopt a new type of aircraft so unless it’s something they already operate you might not get a lot of interest, at least not at a rate that is attractive to you. That’s before you get into questions of instructor familiarity.

You will also have to pay the FTU for your son’s time-building hours, since his use of the aircraft will eat up the time between maintenance inspections for which they will be paying.

[Bede]

It’s an enormous amount of maintenance paperwork and headache for an FTU to adopt a new type of aircraft so unless it’s something they already operate you might not get a lot of interest, at least not at a rate that is attractive to you. That’s before you get into questions of instructor familiarity.

Amending the FTUOC, submitting MSA and MCM, getting electronic maintenance manuals. Did I miss anything? That's half a day's work for a reasonable competent person. Couple weeks waiting for TC and you're off and running.

[photofly]

It’s an enormous amount of maintenance paperwork and headache for an FTU to adopt a new type of aircraft so unless it’s something they already operate you might not get a lot of interest, at least not at a rate that is attractive to you. That’s before you get into questions of instructor familiarity.

Amending the FTUOC, submitting MSA and MCM, getting electronic maintenance manuals. Did I miss anything? That's half a day's work for a reasonable competent person. Couple weeks waiting for TC and you're off and running.

You have to write an MSA to submit, before you can submit it. Plus consider and propose any amendments required to your MCM.

Getting the maintenance manuals can be really expensive, and then you have to become the expert in every single one of the manufacturer SB’s and all AD’s that may or may not apply (and you have to decide for each one if they do, or don’t, based on serial numbers, parts fitted, previous compliance, time in service and whatnot, and if they do apply, when compliance is due based on hours or calendar time or cycles, or whatever.)

Ditto for the engine, propellor, magnetos and everything else fitted.

Have you any idea how many airworthiness directives and service bulletins Cessna and Piper have issued and collected for the older models?

If you can get that all done in half a day, you’re wasted at an FTU!

[Bede]

become the expert in every single one of the manufacturer SB’s and all AD’s that may or may not apply (and you have to decide for each one if they do, or don’t, based on serial numbers, parts fitted, previous compliance, time in service and whatnot, and if they do apply, when compliance is due based on hours or calendar time or cycles, or whatever.)

If you can get that all done in half a day, you’re wasted at an FTU!

Right, I forgot about the AD search. I'll change my answer to 3/4 of a day. none of this is terribly labour intensive if you've done it a couple times before which a PRM should have.

Seriously though, I'm blown away by how long it takes some people to get stuff done. A friend of mine at TC and I had this discussion. It takes him half a day to approve an AMO if someone competent has done the submission. No idea how it takes others 3 months. He's never backed up with work because he gets his stuff done on time every day and then goes home early.

BTW, the service and parts manuals will likely be the biggest impediment. They are ridiculously expensive.

[photofly]

become the expert in every single one of the manufacturer SB’s and all AD’s that may or may not apply (and you have to decide for each one if they do, or don’t, based on serial numbers, parts fitted, previous compliance, time in service and whatnot, and if they do apply, when compliance is due based on hours or calendar time or cycles, or whatever.)

If you can get that all done in half a day, you’re wasted at an FTU!

Right, I forgot about the AD search. I'll change my answer to 3/4 of a day. none of this is terribly labour intensive if you've done it a couple times before which a PRM should have.

And how many times have you have to verify AD compliance on a sixty year old aircraft? What about service bulletins? Every single one of them...

Seriously though, I'm blown away by how long it takes some people to get stuff done.

So you're doubling down: "If you can't do it as fast as I can (or as I flippantly boast I can, at any rate) then you must be lazy." I'm surprised at you.

[Bede]

And how many times have you have to verify AD compliance on a sixty year old aircraft? What about service bulletins? Every single one of them...

Me personally? Maybe 5 or 6 over the years. Maybe not 60 years old, but 45 anyways.

So you're doubling down: "If you can't do it as fast as I can (or as I flippantly boast I can, at any rate) then you must be lazy." I'm surprised at you.

You bet!

Seriously though, I never said that. But I am surprised that it takes some people 3 months to complete a task that it takes others half a day.

[photofly]

Ok, but in the context of this thread, “some people take three months” for some random task that you don’t specify is a straw man. What is relevant however is that it takes a bunch of paperwork to put a new aircraft type on an OC, and it’s a hurdle for the OP’s plan that he may not have considered.

[Squaretail]

The obvious short cut here if one is hell bent on leasing to a school is of course to buy the same type as they already operate. Personally I don't recommend leasing to a school. Unless you have some ulterior reasons besides just making your airplane more affordable.

[Bede]

Ok, but in the context of this thread, “some people take three months” for some random task that you don’t specify is a straw man.

From above:

A friend of mine at TC and I had this discussion. It takes him half a day to approve an AMO if someone competent has done the submission. No idea how it takes others 3 months. He's never backed up with work because he gets his stuff done on time every day and then goes home early.

What is relevant however is that it takes a bunch of paperwork to put a new aircraft type on an OC, and it’s a hurdle for the OP’s plan that he may not have considered.

That is true.

[photofly]

Ok, but in the context of this thread, “some people take three months” for some random task that you don’t specify is a straw man.

From above:

A friend of mine at TC and I had this discussion. It takes him half a day to approve an AMO if someone competent has done the submission. No idea how it takes others 3 months. He's never backed up with work because he gets his stuff done on time every day and then goes home early.

He works for Transport and approves AMOs. He doesn’t work for an FTU nor does he actually prepare submissions to add new aircraft and new types to an OC. So his sheer bloody brilliance and awesomeness at his job doesn’t really inform us.

Even then it takes him half a day when someone else has done all the time consuming stuff and prepared the submission.