"career flight instructor"

[photofly]

I’m not getting it either.

Never T/O without the WandB or all the calculation done.

An instructor - but only an instructor - has to do a weight and balance calculation every flight?

Why would an instructor have either do - or make his or her student do - something that ., as a responsible pilot with a professional attitude - doesn’t have to do? Why would you teach students to do something you don’t want every pilot to do?

[Cat Driver]

Well I guess I did it all wrong when I was a flight instructor.

I taught using common sense and not reaction like Pavlov's Dogs.

If you are flying the same airplane lesson after lesson doing a paper W&B is wasting valuable time...

...in my personal opinion of course.

[Cat Driver]

Common sense dictates that if you are flying the same airplane day after day you should know it can not be out of W&B if you are way below Gross take off weight and there is no passengers or cargo in a position that could put it out of the W&B limits.

[digits_]

I’m not getting it either.

Never T/O without the WandB or all the calculation done.

An instructor - but only an instructor - has to do a weight and balance calculation every flight?

Why would an instructor have either do - or make his or her student do - something that ., as a responsible pilot with a professional attitude - doesn’t have to do? Why would you teach students to do something you don’t want every pilot to do?

Is there a difference between the skills of a ppl student and the skills of a licensed pilot?

I hope there is. If you have the attitude of "nah the W&B is the same" in the early stages of training, students will incorrectly assume it is not an important thing to do, and one of those "silly paperwork" thingies. If a student just shows me the copy of a W&B he did for a previous flight, and he can explain to me why it is accurate for this flight, then great! He thought about it, came up with a quick way of doing it, and all good.

If he does the same thing for a training session that includes spins, and he misses the normal/utility difference, then even better, you've got a learning experience that shows that the "same W& B" isn't always useable. Hopefully he won't do it again.

When licensed pilots are flying frequently, are building experience, getting to know their plane better and have a reasonable level of confidence in the plane and the W&B graphs, they can probably get away with doing it in their head or referencing previous flights. I do not think a (PPL) student who might only fly once every 3 weeks has a sufficient level of knowledge/experience to do so.

I've done pre flight test refresher flights with other instructors' students, one of them didn't know how to check notams ('instructor checked notams in the morning, and they don't change, so why should I waste time doing that?') and vaguely remembered seeing a W&B once ('I was told it isn't an issue for C172 so I never had to do one'). I want to avoid that.

[photofly]

If my instructor made me do the same calculation that I'd done the week before, with the same numbers, just to prove how important it is, I'd tell him her to get stuffed. If I was asked a third time, I'd switch instructors.

Repeating a calculation to which you already have the answer doesn't teach you it's important, it teaches you that your instructor wastes your time.

Nobody's arguing the importance of making sure you're inside the approved envelope. But it's not necessary, wise or sensible always to repeat a known calculation to do that.

[Schooner69A]

Golden Flyer: pm sent...

John

[digits_]

If my instructor made me do the same calculation that I'd done the week before, with the same numbers, just to prove how important it is, I'd tell him her to get stuffed. If I was asked a third time, I'd switch instructors.

Repeating a calculation to which you already have the answer doesn't teach you it's important, it teaches you that your instructor wastes your time.

Nobody's arguing the importance of making sure you're inside the approved envelope. But it's not necessary, wise or sensible always to repeat a known calculation to do that.

Where did I say they have to redo the whole calculation?

If a student just shows me the copy of a W&B he did for a previous flight, and he can explain to me why it is accurate for this flight, then great! He thought about it, came up with a quick way of doing it, and all good.

If he can't show me the W&B is accurate for the flight, because he didn't bring one, didn't do one or just vaguely made an estimate, then yes he will have to redo it.

If he can show me an old one and explain why it is accurate, he does not have to redo one.

But for every flight I want to make sure the student attempted to check the weather, get the notams and has a W&B, amongst other things. Not sure why that would be such a big deal. Again, we are dealing with students here, people who might have flown for 2 or 10 hours. If that would piss you off as a student, then so be it...

[photofly]

Where did I say they have to redo the whole calculation?

Let's go back to the original statement, that . queried:
"Never T/O without the WandB or all the calculation done."

But for every flight I want to make sure the student attempted to check the weather, get the notams and has a W&B

There's no requirement, need, or benefit to "have a W&B". It's just another random piece of paper. We simply need to make sure we are inside the approved envelope.

If a student just shows me the copy of a W&B he did for a previous flight, and he can explain to me why it is accurate for this flight, then great! He thought about it, came up with a quick way of doing it, and all good.

Again, we are dealing with students here, people who might have flown for 2 or 10 hours.

The "skill" of "having" a weight and balance isn't something that improves with practice, or something at which experienced pilots are "better", so the number of hours of flight time really isn't relevant. If it's good practice at 2 hours, it should be good practice at 10,000 hours, no?

Maybe you could suggest at how many hours of flight time it's ok not to "have" a weight and balance calculation? Somewhere between 10, and whatever .'s total hours are. But where?

Prove to me that you can do the calculation once or twice, then tell me each time whether we're inside the envelope and how you can be confident about it. ("Because I've checked the numbers and it's impossible to be outside the envelope with you, me, no bags, and anything up to full tanks, in this aircraft". Job done.

I understand that you're using the tool of forcing a student to have a perfectly accurate W&B calculation for each flight as a means to teach them not to fly overloaded or out of balance on any flight. I don't think it's the best way, because they won't keep it up, as licenced pilots. Pilots (mostly) aren't stupid. They'll do the sensible thing and acknowledge that if they weren't overweight last time they flew with the same load, they're not overweight this time. Just like . does. And just like I and everyone else does. Might as well teach them that in the first place, and alongside teach them that they times they do need to do a calculation are those times they're not flying the same plane with the same load.

[Cat Driver]

and whatever .'s total hours are.

Somewhere over thirty thousand hours.

Zero accidents, zero regulatory violations.

Lots of close calls.

Now back to W&B.

It is interesting to see how many instructors fly the Cessna 150 over gross in the flight schools.

[photofly]

All the fat ones.

[digits_]

"Never T/O without the WandB or all the calculation done."

Yes, you need either the W&B ("same as last flight") or the calculation ("first time with 3 people on board, better calculate everything")

Going flying without either of these options is setting a bad example as an instructor.

There's no requirement, need, or benefit to "have a W&B". It's just another random piece of paper. We simply need to make sure we are inside the approved envelope.

Agreed.

Although, some schools might have that requirement in their FTU manuals, so then it does become a necessity. No idea if yours does or not. The colleges do I believe (based on rumors, have no hard evidence)

How will a 3 hour student pilot make sure he is inside the approved envelope?

The "skill" of "having" a weight and balance isn't something that improves with practice, or something at which experienced pilots are "better", so the number of hours of flight time really isn't relevant. If it's good practice at 2 hours, it should be good practice at 10,000 hours, no?

Of course it improves.

A 200 hour pilot will take his 3 fat friends on a tour. He knows he can not take full fuel from previous calculations. He might redo the calculation to take maximum fuel.

A 40 hour pilot takes his family on a tour for the first time. Up untill that point the W&B was always the same, "because it is very hard to overload a 172". He takes full tanks, because "more fuel is better" and leaves overweight. He notices the plane climbs noticeably slower and makes a mental note to do the full W&B calculation next time. Maybe he will make quite a few mistakes, as he has rarely done one.

Maybe you could suggest at how many hours of flight time it's ok not to "have" a weight and balance calculation? Somewhere between 10, and whatever .'s total hours are. But where?

When you are willing to bet your life -and if I am your instructor that you have the capabilities to assess such situation- on the fact that you know the plane and load situation well enough to be sure the plane is within limits.

Prove to me that you can do the calculation once or twice, then tell me each time whether we're inside the envelope and how you can be confident about it. ("Because I've checked the numbers and it's impossible to be outside the envelope with you, me, no bags, and anything up to full tanks, in this aircraft". Job done.

How does he check the numbers without doing a calculation? That is exactly what a W&B is. I don't care if a student does it via an online tool, an excel spreadsheet, pen and paper, an app, as long as he thinks about it.

Also note he might be flying a different airplane for the first 5 lessons anyway.

Question: how many W&B calculations does your average PPL student do? Only the first 2 lessons?

I understand that you're using the tool of forcing a student to have a perfectly accurate W&B calculation for each flight as a means to teach them not to fly overloaded or out of balance on any flight. I don't think it's the best way, because they won't keep it up, as licenced pilots.

That depends. When they are flying commercially, they will have to do one for every flight, even if it is 12 times the same trip a day. They can copy the paperwork from the previous legs, but it will have to be done.

As a PPL: I hope that during the training they will have ran into situations where the W&B did not turn out as expected and that it will stick with them for the rest of their 'career'. Also, if you do it more, you take down the myth that it is a very hard thing to do that takes a long time. If you practice it, it really doesn't.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that W&B calculations, especially the final result and the graph in the POH are sometimes hard to interpret. The location of the COG / moment changes much more than what a lot of students think. Adding a bag in the rear baggage compartment instead of the co pilot seat can make a huge difference. A lot of students underestimate the difference it can make.

Pilots (mostly) aren't stupid.

Not all of them are stupid

They'll do the sensible thing and acknowledge that if they weren't overweight last time they flew with the same load, they're not overweight this time. Just like . does. And just like I and everyone else does. Might as well teach them that in the first place, and alongside teach them that they times they do need to do a calculation are those times they're not flying the same plane with the same load.

I still am convinced that a PPL student does not have the necessary skills to reliable make that assessment without some form of reference to the numbers or graph (previous flight W&B, manual, scribbles on a napkin, computer programs, anything he likes,... )
When they tell you the plane is good to go like that, just for fun, ask them where on the CoG / moment graph they think they are, and then actually calculate it.
The overweight issue is one thing, the CoG location is much harder to predict.

[ruddersup?]

I remember someone putting 5 gal. can of water in the copilot seat to adjust the c of g.
I'm probably wrong but I think they were 500 lbs over gross but the c of g was right on, lol.
Ahhhh, memories, do as I say not as I do, lol.

[digits_]

I remember someone putting 5 gal. can of water in the copilot seat to adjust the c of g.
I'm probably wrong but I think they were 500 lbs over gross but the c of g was right on, lol.
Ahhhh, memories, do as I say not as I do, lol.

Well played sir, well played...

Although, that person wasn't an instructor yet

[Cat Driver]

The colleges do I believe

Yeh, that is what we need to do use what the colleges teach.

One of the most stupid methods of teaching I ever heard of was from Seneca.

They taught leaving the gear down in the Beech Baron doing circuits.

Stunningly stupid way to teach multi engine flying, just stunningly stupid.

That depends. When they are flying commercially, they will have to do one for every flight, even if it is 12 times the same trip a day. They can copy the paperwork from the previous legs, but it will have to be done.

Yeh sure they do.

When did the bush pilots start doing that?

You say they have to do it, who makes sure they do?

And if they don't what happens then?

[photofly]

When they are flying commercially...

Since when do PPL holders fly commercially? Maybe we should leave complying with a commercial operators OC requirements for when that pilot (no longer a student) works for a commercial operator?

A three hour student will know she’s not overweight by doing the calculation, same as everyone else. (I have never heard the myth that it takes a long time. Where did you hear that?) She’s not going to do it more accurately with 20 hours, or 500 hours. W & B is not a “skills” issue and doesn’t need hours and hours of supervised repetitive practice with the same loading each time until a student is competent to do it solo and within flight test limits.

The skill that needs to be learned is to know when a W&B calculation needs to be done. This is what your example students above have, or haven’t learned, as the case may be. That skill isn’t learned by “having” the same W&B calculation for the same load, every flight.

[Cat Driver]

W & B is not a “skills” issue and doesn’t need hours and hours of supervised repetitive practice until a student is competent to do it solo and within flight test limits.

Well for sure you don't need to know much more than about grade four or so education to handle the math skills needed.

I am really surprised this subject is even being discussed as it is so basic in the grand scheme of things in flight training.

Do you instruct at the Island photofly?

[waterdog]

Getting back to the flight instructor thing......

I don't understand why this can't work from a business perspective. The flight schools are charging for the wet rental of the plane, which is usually steep, and lets face it the planes are not exactly new and cutting edge.

The schools are charging a premium for the staff who are instructing you, they are charging the rental of the plane on flight time ( hobbs time) not air time which is how the plane is serviced.

Granted the margins aren't great but the product from my perspective isn't great either. I recently took my ppl from a local school north of Toronto and it kinda sucked. My instructor was awesome until he quite to go work for AC and I was left in the lurch.
I would love to be an instructor when I retire as a hobby, teaching is definitely a passion and to be able to combine that with a hobby I love would be great.
I am also in business and what I see is a crap product that is in high demand and serviced very poorly. I had dispatchers who would barely talk to me, until of course I finished my ppl, bought a plane and started flying more then them, now its a different story. At 45 yrs old that is a ridiculous issue to face, what are we in middle school again.

Maybe I am missing something, but what I see is a lot of passionate, good instructors, and a lot of passionate students who are willing, and do pay good money to learn how to fly a plane for a hobby and somewhere in the middle, its getting wrecked.

Why aren't instructors watching students land while they are out doing solo work?
Why is there no video analysis of flights and landings?
Why are instructors not teaching with tools that have come from the last 10yrs? Foreflight, cloud ahoy etc........
Why are all school planes not equipped with some semblance of the same systems so that every time you change planes you don't have to learn a new gps system etc?

The basic flight course system is broken, and is a primary deterrent in engaging from and prospering off of a lot of people who would love to get their ppl.

When a customer walks into a flight school to ask about training, they are not a bother, they are a walking bag of money.....what should happen is a coffee and a tour to give the business time to separate that money from the legs it came in on. That is not my experience.

Fix the system, engage the students and there will be a ton of money for the instructors who are driving the whole system. The question is, how do you fix the system.......?

[digits_]

When they are flying commercially...

Since when do PPL holders fly commercially? Maybe we should leave complying with a commercial operators OC requirements for when that pilot (no longer a student) works for a commercial operator?

Commercial pilots start out as PPLs as well. That is why I split up my reply: one applicable for PPL pilots, one applicable for people continuing as CPLs. If you want to argue about the usefullness for PPL only pilots, please focus on my reply for that case.

For clarification:

As a PPL: I hope that during the training they will have ran into situations where the W&B did not turn out as expected and that it will stick with them for the rest of their 'career'. Also, if you do it more, you take down the myth that it is a very hard thing to do that takes a long time. If you practice it, it really doesn't.

The skill that needs to be learned is to know when a W&B calculation needs to be done. This is what your example students above have, or haven’t learned, as the case may be.

Correct. A skill that can be acquired by comparing estimates and actual calculated CoGs.

Bottom line is, before the flight, students need to be able to answer the question: "Are we within limits". The answer has to be supported by some kind of proof. Not because I don't trust them, or because I don't know if we are within limits, but because they need to get a system in place that works for them. Something they will hopefully do after they get their license.

Acceptable (to me) is: doing a W&B calculation, comparing the flight to an older calculation (previous flight), doing it online, excel, app
Not acceptable: "we were fine last time, so we are good now", while ignoring different fuel loads or airplane differences.

[Cat Driver]

Fix the system, engage the students and there will be a ton of money for the instructors who are driving the whole system. The question is, how do you fix the system.......?

Get rid of the FTU-OC requirement and free up those who wish to teach flying to operate a business based on quality of flight instruction like you can do south of the border.

The biggest problem is the government bureaucracy that requires so much time and money to comply with the horseshit they so blindly force on the schools.

The rules are so complex in Canada that no one can interpret them and figure out the correct answer.

If the FTU-OC requirement were dropped I would go back out to the airport and re open the school I started in 1986.

I just turned eighty two and it looks like I will live till a hundred and eighty two so it would give me something to do.

There are a lot of young instructors out there who I can choose from and set up a real flight school that would turn out a superior product.

And they would be paid very well.

A full time flight instructor should make at least $60,000.00 a year and go up from there.

At the end of my career I was making decent money, if I couldn't make at least a thousand dollars a day I did not even book the client/'s for that day.

[waterdog]

Ok, I’mactually really Interested in this but don’t know much about it. What is the FTU-OC?

To start, the basic problem seems to be that instructors need to be employeed for a set shift and not just when their students are there. That gives the school a known cost and have the school set up and fill the instructors time. I was constantly chasing my instructor for time which seemed insane. Free instructors, great I can think of a thousand things to do while you don’t have a student that would help the business and other students. But I clearly don’t know the regulations that people are facing and realize I’m looking at this from a very naive position.