Pilots will never see the day where an instructor makes what they should.
Employers have greenhorns by the balls. It's an employers maket.
Dragging government funded college programs into this arguement is irrelevant. Abolishing such programs is not going to increase the pay at other schools.
Keep in mind that the Instructor is liable for all damages incurred to an aircraft...a Co-Pilot is not.
Keep in mind the Instructor is liable for the customer being happy and coming back through the door to spend more money...a Co-Pilot is not.
Keep in mind that a pilot fresh out of CPL training is full of piss and vinegar, and loves nothing more that sitting around talking planes all day...talking flying all day. You'll have a tough time getting a 10,000 hour fella to do the same. Maybe new guys haven't seen everything, but at that early stage of their career they are still impressionable. Impressionable when doing their Instructor Training...learning the way exercises should be taught. More experienced pilots are not impressionable. They are not well versed in current training requirements/curriculum. They are not as enthusiastic about VFR instruction. And no amount of money is going to make them change. They'll simply work for their paycheque.
Perhaps for an instructor to teach Commercial courses they should have to progress through more training and another stage of an Instructor Rating...through demonstration (flight test). To teach MIFR they would then have to attend another training program, and demonstrate their ability to teach through another flight test. This required training would, of course, be payed by the employer and not the pilot. Expensive yes...but if forced to by the government the schools would be forced to abide. The incentive for the school?? Make it "Company Specific" training, that is by no means transferrable to another school. It is only valid on the Instructor's license as long as they work at that school. No jumping around to the highest bidder...that's how all these problems have started!!
The way I see it, this system would regulate a bit of the instructor flow. Low timers get the PPL's. At a certain stage they can begin training to teach CPL's. Pass the "CPL Instructor Rating" and bingo-bango they teach CPL's. Following sufficient experience/proficciency at this they can get into the MIFR side of the company. Each stage is more definite, requiring more compensation. The employer could not operate their company without the qualified pilots either. "Well, yes our ad SAYS we offer Commercial Pilot Training but...well...it's too expensive to train an instructor to do that, so how 'bout some more PPL dual for ya?"
I know this is essentially the way things are operating now...but to the folks that are arguing that instructors are inexperienced, maybe this would help.
Will we ever see such a program? Not in a million years.
What's the Solution?
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Excellent Post OW.
OW wrote:
I have said it before and will continue to say it: " the only way to make things better for pilots is for pilots to take on the responsibility of making the employers pay what the Labour Laws require them to pay."
Wah Wah Wah, I want more money doesn't work. Pick up the phone and call your local Labour office and tell them what you are doing that your employer refuses to pay you for. File a complaint and it will be investigated. Whine on the internet and you just wear out your fingers.
It isn't really a question of how much you get paid, as much as it is a question of what you get paid for.
The typical employer says: "If you won't sit around waiting for me to toss you a crumb, I'll get more slobs with no self esteme to sit around waiting and you will get less crumbs."
You want me to answer the phone, pay me. You want me to pick up the garbage that you and your friends leave around, pay me. You want me to wash that airplane, pay me. The Law says you have to!
Don't ask me to make your life easier, and certainly don't ask LT. Take some responsibility for your own fate.
My dear Cat...you're just being silly. $350 per hour! Indeed.
There are already two classes of instructor. 1, guys who treat it as stepping stone to build time.
2, the guys who are in it cuz that's what they want to do. The problem is, most fall into group 1!!!
NOBODY, I repete...NOBODY in this industry has to jump through as many hoops as the poor instructor! There are FOUR classes of instructor! How bloody STUPID is that??? As I see it, the class 1 and 2 could be lumped together, and the 4 should be dropped altogether! Just restrict the then class 2 a little. No problem. They would act under the supervision of the then class 1. Dont they already do that???
THE CLASS SYSTEM OF THE INSTRUCTORS IS THERE SIMPLY TO JUSTIFY EMPLOYMENT OF TRANSPORT CANADA INSPECTORS TO OVER SEE THIS MONSTER THEY HAVE CREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!! There IS no other reason for it!
And if a school charges 45-50 per hour for an instructor, that should be passed on to that instructor.
AND...yah, there's more! The class 1 instructors should be allowed to do training on their own, or the customer's aercraft, at whatever they can charge!
I would go as far a suggesting the time requirement for an instructor rating be raised a little in the first place....cuz, lets face it, many are still learning themselves....say 1000 hours? Where would they get a thousand hours? By working in the industry for a couple of years, then returning to instructing because they WANT to instruct. How novel would THAT be??
And, yes, increase the cost to the customer. They'll still come. They always will....and a good instructor is like a good employee anywhere else, so pay them a livable wage.
If I could make 50K a year instructing...I'd instruct!
There are already two classes of instructor. 1, guys who treat it as stepping stone to build time.
2, the guys who are in it cuz that's what they want to do. The problem is, most fall into group 1!!!
NOBODY, I repete...NOBODY in this industry has to jump through as many hoops as the poor instructor! There are FOUR classes of instructor! How bloody STUPID is that??? As I see it, the class 1 and 2 could be lumped together, and the 4 should be dropped altogether! Just restrict the then class 2 a little. No problem. They would act under the supervision of the then class 1. Dont they already do that???
THE CLASS SYSTEM OF THE INSTRUCTORS IS THERE SIMPLY TO JUSTIFY EMPLOYMENT OF TRANSPORT CANADA INSPECTORS TO OVER SEE THIS MONSTER THEY HAVE CREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!! There IS no other reason for it!
And if a school charges 45-50 per hour for an instructor, that should be passed on to that instructor.
AND...yah, there's more! The class 1 instructors should be allowed to do training on their own, or the customer's aercraft, at whatever they can charge!
I would go as far a suggesting the time requirement for an instructor rating be raised a little in the first place....cuz, lets face it, many are still learning themselves....say 1000 hours? Where would they get a thousand hours? By working in the industry for a couple of years, then returning to instructing because they WANT to instruct. How novel would THAT be??
And, yes, increase the cost to the customer. They'll still come. They always will....and a good instructor is like a good employee anywhere else, so pay them a livable wage.
If I could make 50K a year instructing...I'd instruct!
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Cat Driver
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Doc .
Do you not agree that if an airline pilot makes $250.00 per hour then specialty instruction should be worth a lot more?
It wouldn't be worth my effort leaving home for less, and I've yet to have anyone question what I charge.
Actually I just sort of stumbled into doing this kind of work and you have to admit there is not many out there that I have to compete against.
As to TC, they will only make more rules never less, paper work is their only talent...if you call some of the drivel that comes out of TC talent.
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Do you not agree that if an airline pilot makes $250.00 per hour then specialty instruction should be worth a lot more?
It wouldn't be worth my effort leaving home for less, and I've yet to have anyone question what I charge.
Actually I just sort of stumbled into doing this kind of work and you have to admit there is not many out there that I have to compete against.
As to TC, they will only make more rules never less, paper work is their only talent...if you call some of the drivel that comes out of TC talent.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well ....you're a "cat of a different color"!! It's a bit missleading, but in your case, charging 250$ per hour makes sence. I suspect, that to get a total of ten hours of instructing logged, you have to spend ten days in some hinterland or other. While you may well be making $250 per hr of instructing, you are really making that per diem. Yes?
Now, if I could get $250 per day to drive a Dak, with expenses covered, I'd be there as well.
But, the jist of this, I think is aimed more at the flight school type, and not the tired, but wise old eagles like you and I...and JC...and Gawd knows who else!
Cheers
Now, if I could get $250 per day to drive a Dak, with expenses covered, I'd be there as well.
But, the jist of this, I think is aimed more at the flight school type, and not the tired, but wise old eagles like you and I...and JC...and Gawd knows who else!
Cheers
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Cat Driver
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Doc :
Yeh, the type of flying I now do is rather unique because of how few airplanes of that type there are left.
However I have to stick to a set rate of pay for the type of flying I take on.
The hardest is the long international ferry flights and we flat rate that by the day ( we do have a policy where we do not charge the customer for weather delays over an agreed upon number. on those days we only charge expenses. )
We quote in USD as that is the currency of aviation. For ferry flights we charge $750.00 USD per day for a crew of two plus expenses.
In europe I charge 250.00 Euros per flight hour plus all expenses for type rating training.
Sometimes that works out real well sometimes not so well.
I have six type ratings to do when I go back this Friday, heaven knows how many hours I will fly or how many days it will take.
But my wife loves living in all those different places so I guess it really does not matter in the long run.
The question is who will take over this training and ferry stuff when I finally quit?
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Yeh, the type of flying I now do is rather unique because of how few airplanes of that type there are left.
However I have to stick to a set rate of pay for the type of flying I take on.
The hardest is the long international ferry flights and we flat rate that by the day ( we do have a policy where we do not charge the customer for weather delays over an agreed upon number. on those days we only charge expenses. )
We quote in USD as that is the currency of aviation. For ferry flights we charge $750.00 USD per day for a crew of two plus expenses.
In europe I charge 250.00 Euros per flight hour plus all expenses for type rating training.
Sometimes that works out real well sometimes not so well.
I have six type ratings to do when I go back this Friday, heaven knows how many hours I will fly or how many days it will take.
But my wife loves living in all those different places so I guess it really does not matter in the long run.
The question is who will take over this training and ferry stuff when I finally quit?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Doc :
Double post.
Double post.
Last edited by Cat Driver on Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Doc: I know several specialty instructors in the USA that charge USD$100 per hour and are solidly booked.
They probably wouldn't be considered "real pilots" by the guys here who think that any aircraft that has less than two turbine engines is a tiny piece of junk, but perhaps they enjoy what they do, which is more than I can say for most airline types, who love to bitch endlessly about how terrible their lives are.
They probably wouldn't be considered "real pilots" by the guys here who think that any aircraft that has less than two turbine engines is a tiny piece of junk, but perhaps they enjoy what they do, which is more than I can say for most airline types, who love to bitch endlessly about how terrible their lives are.
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Cat Driver
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Hz2p :
You forgot to mention that a lot also fly turbines for peanuts.
Not to mention a lot of turbine pilots would not be able to fly large radial engine airplanes, because if you don't know how to start them it's difficult to get them in the air.
You forgot to mention that a lot also fly turbines for peanuts.
Not to mention a lot of turbine pilots would not be able to fly large radial engine airplanes, because if you don't know how to start them it's difficult to get them in the air.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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In your wildest dreams you would not believe the difficulty I have with a lot of turbine drivers who just canno't grasp the simple fact that you cannot quickly move the throttles on radials and not destroy them.
That and most of them have zero understanding of why the designers of airplanes attached a rudder on the back end.
If only I could design one simple SOP to fly the CAT they would be happy, however without numbers and someone to confirm they are flying the numbers most are lost.
I don't charge enough with some of the flying challenged types I get to untrain.
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That and most of them have zero understanding of why the designers of airplanes attached a rudder on the back end.
If only I could design one simple SOP to fly the CAT they would be happy, however without numbers and someone to confirm they are flying the numbers most are lost.
I don't charge enough with some of the flying challenged types I get to untrain.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I've never flown anything with a radial engine. Would like to someday, though. Just a thought: moving the throttles quickly on any engine is rather pointless, I think. If you are thinking ahead of the aircraft, you begin smoothly rolling on the power BEFORE the need arises, since you see what's shaping up and know in advance the power setting you'll require. Emergencies aside, there's no reason to be ham-fisted with the throttle. (Why am I telling YOU this?)
Understanding begets harmony; in seeking the first you will find the last.
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I'd Rather Be Flying
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It would be nice to know that those individuals who have the ability to change pay and working condtions for pilots are reading this thread, because there are certainly some valid points being posted here.
For the most part, pilots, and instructors alike bring these issues upon themselves. You shouldn't have to work for free, and those who continue to do so don't realize that they are hurting themselves and others around the industry. I can sympathize with instructors who make next to nothing and work hard despite that fact. I've been there. Fortunately, I now enjoy a good paycheque (and I'm still instructing).
I would also agree with the idea that some instructors (particularly some Class IV's don't know enough to be teaching new students), and that having an individual with industry experience and a few thousand hours would benefit the new-comers a lot more. This raises more problems though....likely, due to pay, those with experience won't want the teaching jobs because it can be boring and the working conditions are marginal. So we have an oversaturated market with a bunch of 250 hour wonders willing to do almost anything for nothing. Herein lies part of the problem.
I don't necessarily blame anyone else except the people (pilots) who continually prostitute themselves and work for nothing. You don't need to look any further than yourself. If you work at changing your own attitude and look for options other than bitching and complaining, you might notice a difference in how you are treated.
Someone needs to raise the standards for pilots. It can start with the individual. The question remains how? That's up to us as individuals. The simple fact remains that some things never change, and until people start standing up for themselves, these issues will continue to haunt us for years to come.
My thoughts, not yours.
For the most part, pilots, and instructors alike bring these issues upon themselves. You shouldn't have to work for free, and those who continue to do so don't realize that they are hurting themselves and others around the industry. I can sympathize with instructors who make next to nothing and work hard despite that fact. I've been there. Fortunately, I now enjoy a good paycheque (and I'm still instructing).
I would also agree with the idea that some instructors (particularly some Class IV's don't know enough to be teaching new students), and that having an individual with industry experience and a few thousand hours would benefit the new-comers a lot more. This raises more problems though....likely, due to pay, those with experience won't want the teaching jobs because it can be boring and the working conditions are marginal. So we have an oversaturated market with a bunch of 250 hour wonders willing to do almost anything for nothing. Herein lies part of the problem.
I don't necessarily blame anyone else except the people (pilots) who continually prostitute themselves and work for nothing. You don't need to look any further than yourself. If you work at changing your own attitude and look for options other than bitching and complaining, you might notice a difference in how you are treated.
Someone needs to raise the standards for pilots. It can start with the individual. The question remains how? That's up to us as individuals. The simple fact remains that some things never change, and until people start standing up for themselves, these issues will continue to haunt us for years to come.
My thoughts, not yours.
Last edited by I'd Rather Be Flying on Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Come down, your head is in the sky, feet on the ground...come down."
Couldn't have said it better myself. Transport has definately created a monster, and it is them.Doc wrote: THE CLASS SYSTEM OF THE INSTRUCTORS IS THERE SIMPLY TO JUSTIFY EMPLOYMENT OF TRANSPORT CANADA INSPECTORS TO OVER SEE THIS MONSTER THEY HAVE CREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!! There IS no other reason for it!
And if a school charges 45-50 per hour for an instructor, that should be passed on to that instructor.
Oh yeah, and maybe the instructors should pay their share of the phone bills, the business taxes, the rent, heat, staff benefits (EI CPP etc.) advertising - and the list goes on. By the end they should have about $15 per hour for their instruction time. I own a school, and so I know what the bottom line is. I used to make about 5X more than i make now when i was a newbie Class IV. I've been on both sides, and the problem is not that the school does not pay their instructor enough. There simply isn't enough left over after everything is paid for. A school is a business, and therefore must be run like one. Most other small businesses would laugh at the measely profit made by a flight school. (I know, because it has happened to me.).
Instead of blaming each other in the industry, why not start devoting your efforts to combating the real competitors to the business. No not your local school down the street, im talking about that quad dealership on the corner that you drool over, or the boat dealership selling the finest in seadoos. Whether you are training a private student or a commercial superstar, their dollars are what keeps them here along with a desire to fly. If all of us in the industry treated students like customers who have choices, instead of assuming that they will come back, we would all do alot better. That goes not only for flight schools and employees, but all of aviation. If people do not see value in flying, they will find a better easier way to spend their money. That is the real problem.
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Cat Driver
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I have no idea of who 172 Driver is but whoever he or she is he/she is correct, there is very if little profit in operating a flight school.
The reasons are many, mostly there are far to many rules and regulations and far, far to many policies and rules requiring paper work and wasted time answering same.
I finally decided it was hopeless so became a mercenary with zero interest in any of the B.S. associated with complying to TC's ever expanding demands.
If the industry keeps going the way it is you will see very few small Mom and Pop operations due the fact they are being strangled by bureaucracy.
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The reasons are many, mostly there are far to many rules and regulations and far, far to many policies and rules requiring paper work and wasted time answering same.
I finally decided it was hopeless so became a mercenary with zero interest in any of the B.S. associated with complying to TC's ever expanding demands.
If the industry keeps going the way it is you will see very few small Mom and Pop operations due the fact they are being strangled by bureaucracy.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
No more responces? Guess Cat got the last word. And Cat, you can think of me as one of those mom and pop flight school owners thinking renegade - wana join up and fight the TC monster? Maybe thats what we need, to get all of us together and take on the ever increasing rules and regs and maybe make this business fun and profitable - oops did I say profit. Shame on me. Thats not allowed in aviation.
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Cat Driver
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172 Driver :
I wish you all the best in your struggle to make enough to eat occasionally, and hope you make some money eventually.
I had my fill of owning a FTU and would never even consider getting back in.
The only real drawback with the training I now do is I spend far to much time away from home......but there is no problem with paper work and the money is really good............
Cat
I wish you all the best in your struggle to make enough to eat occasionally, and hope you make some money eventually.
I had my fill of owning a FTU and would never even consider getting back in.
The only real drawback with the training I now do is I spend far to much time away from home......but there is no problem with paper work and the money is really good............
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
SecondDoc wrote:There are FOUR classes of instructor! How bloody STUPID is that??? As I see it, the class 1 and 2 could be lumped together, and the 4 should be dropped altogether! Just restrict the then class 2 a little. No problem. They would act under the supervision of the then class 1. Dont they already do that???
THE CLASS SYSTEM OF THE INSTRUCTORS IS THERE SIMPLY TO JUSTIFY EMPLOYMENT OF TRANSPORT CANADA INSPECTORS TO OVER SEE THIS MONSTER THEY HAVE CREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remove the class system and addopt the FAA way of doing things when it comes to instruction.
I am curious are there any counties that require an instructor to have industry experience before they can instruct? This sounds good however I doubt it would ever happen. This solution of 1000 hours prior to being able to instruct would result in making it even harder to find that first job. Probably would do a lot for turning out a safer pilot however.
Salary and working conditions/slave labour however will never be improved without an industry association working with TC and the department of labour to identify and enforce offenders. The problem as I see it is we have no unified voice to work with TC or the department of labour to improve the industry.
So, if as Cat has said (and I think we all agree) that there is no money in operating an FTU, than how can they pass the money down to the instructors (regardless of experience). I still think the solution is to find a way for the owner / operators of FTU's to be able to make a bit more cash so they can pass that on and hire more experienced people.Salary and working conditions/slave labour however will never be improved without an industry association working with TC and the department of labour to identify and enforce offenders. The problem as I see it is we have no unified voice to work with TC or the department of labour to improve the industry.
Great suggestions on this thread, but I still don't see how adjusting the classes of instructor will wind up making instructing a semi-profitable way of earning a living. Deregulation of the TC monster would no doubt be a start, but I don't believe that it's the end-all solution.
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Right Seat Captain
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I think self governance is the first step to a solution. Most educated professions in Canada and and around the world are regulated by themselves. Examples of this are Professional Engineers, Teachers... And Public Safety is not an excuse, since Engineers build structures and vehicles that that concern public safety, and they regulate themselves.
The governing body, would be made up of members of the industry, and are elected by members, namely those who hold a licence of some kind, flying or mechanic... They would have a set of regulations set by people who are held accountable for their actions by members of the profession, the members that keep them in that position. There would be a tribunal system, with procedures closely paralleling Canada's legal system.
Such a governing body would allow the dismantling of Transport Canada. The regulators would be ourselves, chosen periodically amongst ourselves. It would allow change to occur if the members of the profession didn't agree with something. Of course it wouldn't be a perfect system, nothing is, but it would be far better than the monster that has been created to present.
The governing body, would be made up of members of the industry, and are elected by members, namely those who hold a licence of some kind, flying or mechanic... They would have a set of regulations set by people who are held accountable for their actions by members of the profession, the members that keep them in that position. There would be a tribunal system, with procedures closely paralleling Canada's legal system.
Such a governing body would allow the dismantling of Transport Canada. The regulators would be ourselves, chosen periodically amongst ourselves. It would allow change to occur if the members of the profession didn't agree with something. Of course it wouldn't be a perfect system, nothing is, but it would be far better than the monster that has been created to present.
