Climbing on Downwind?

22l · Post by **22l** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:44 pm

Is it correct to turn from crosswind to downwind before reaching circuit altitude and climb in the DW or should i climb crosswind to circuit altitude before turning DW and be so far from the airport that i would never make it back to the runway if engine fails?

Also when leaving the circuit at a controled airport and Twr instructions are to fly the DW and climb to 2000 should i fly a normal DW before starting to climb to 2000 or can i start the climb at soon as established

on DW?
Thanks a lot
22L

. . · Post by **. .** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:52 pm

don't put yourself in a situation where regulations, or someones interpretation of regulations puts your life at risk. If you need to climb on downwind to maintain gliding distance to the runway than do it.

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:38 pm

I had the same problem when I first started my training, basically hold your best rate of climb and you should be ok ... if you are still short a couple hundred feet just climb while turning on your downwind leg (wider turn)..It worked for me .

As for leaving the circuit if a controlled airport review the departure procedure in FTM.

1-en rout climb.
2-set heading point.
3-overhead the field.

cheers
Adam

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:44 pm

Don't worry about climbing in the downwind if you're not at circuit altitude yet, there are many airports where most planes would have to do that on a hot day. Some airplanes have to do it all the time too. I flew a C150 for a while that had a coarse-pitch cruise-optimized prop, with myself and an instructor on board it we were lucky to make circuit altitude before turning base on a hot summer day!

That said don't be ridiculous about it. And be very aware of other aircraft joining the circuit at circuit altitude. As for the climb in the DW it would depend on the exact words used by tower, I would suspect that 95% of the time you'd be expected to climb right away though.

hytymes · Post by **hytymes** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:04 pm

22l wrote:Is it correct to turn from crosswind to downwind before reaching circuit altitude and climb in the DW or should i climb crosswind to circuit altitude before turning DW and be so far from the airport that i would never make it back to the runway if engine fails?

I'm not going to claim to "know" anything. What are you falling short, 100'-200'?? Assuming you are flying circuits, why not extend your T/O 'leg'? Personally, I climb to 500'AGL @ T/O and turn to D/W at circuit alt, seems to work like clockwork based on landmarks (in a 152 @ Vy). Climbing turn to D/W if need be.

I fly uncontrolled, and desire straight/level flight asap during D/W for maximum visiblity, just in case someone is joining mid D/W and doesn't see/hear me (and the possibility of NORDO a/c).

Personally, If the engine were to fail anywhere in the circuit other than turning final, I'd be looking for an alternative other than the runway. The 152's I fly seem to sink like a stone even at best glide.

hytymes
(My opinion carries no credibility, just started circuits myself)

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:47 am

Turning crosswind @ 500-550 AGL, then leveling the wings for a moment, then again to downwind always seems to work out.

You limit your bank to 15-20, so that gives you about rate one turn, or 1 minute to turn around. So even if you climb at miserable 400 fpm, you'll end up at 950 AGL (if you start at 550), and the remaining 50 ft are within acceptable margin (was it +/- 100 ft in the PPL Standards?)

If I couldn't get 400 fpm out of my airplane during climbout, I would seriously doubt the idea of going flying that day.

B-rad · Post by **B-rad** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:27 am

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:07 am

Ideally you want to have reached your TPA before turning downwind. However, if this causes a really wide pattern, too far to make the runway in the case your engine decides to quit, then its okay to finish off your climb on your downwind leg.

2 important points to help you avoid or minimize this.

1) Track runway centreline, so you don't drift toward your downwind leg when you depart. Keep a rectangular pattern, which means that you must look back at the runway(turn your big melon back) and visualize how the wind is affecting your track.

2) Get to Vy ASAP.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:14 am

as an example the circuit alt at the airport i trained at was 1300, SOP for the school was climb runway heading to 900, turn crosswind, climb to 1300 turn downwind, you never ended up far away and got a nice rectangular circuit. So i'm with the other people who suggested climb to 500ish AGL then turn crosswind, it should fix your problem.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:34 am

And the point is? Hey, I've had to climb on final!

22l · Post by **22l** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:53 pm

Thank you all for replies

the last time i was doing circuits was falling short about 300' and yes it was HOT but it probabely has more to do with my flying ability[ or lack thereof]

Next time I will keep all yor sugestions in mind Thanks again
22l

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:37 pm

If you're at a busy training airport, just follow the same pattern as everyone else and worry less about your altitude. Otherwise, do what your instructor/school want you to. I used to fly a 65hp Champ and on a hot day with two people I would've been 5 miles from the airport to be at 1000' agl on downwind. If I just followed the same pattern as everyone else, I'd be about 500', and it seemed to work just fine with no complaints from the tower or anyone else.

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:23 pm

Wilbur wrote: I used to fly a 65hp Champ

Care to tell us where from and for how much, I am looking for a time builder..thanks

Adam

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:00 am

There is no Canadian Aviation Regulation which prohibits you from turning downwind before you have attained your circuit altitude.

For that matter, there is no Canadian Aviation Regulation which specifies circuit altitude (except that with a very low ceiling, you must remain clear of cloud as per CAR 602.114 and 602.115).

There is no Canadian Aviation Regulation which specifies the lateral dimensions of the circuit.

You can only be charged with contravening Canadian Aviation Regulations. The AIM is not law. If something is not specifically prohibited by the CARs it is therefore permitted, modulo CAR 602.01 (reckless and/or negligent).

Fly your aircraft safely, regardless of what various regulatory agencies might prefer.

2R · Post by 2R » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:17 pm

Let me state the obvious

Do not climb with a nose high attitude in the downwind as your forward visability will be a lot less .Making you more vulnerable to a midair collision .Even lowering the nose occasionaly is not enough look out for a busy circuit or pattern.
Keep a good scan going ,as if your life depended on it

futboler14 · Post by **futboler14** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:08 pm

I find usually that if you hold your best rate of climb (in a c-172) when reaching 500' I start to turn crosswind and if I continue to climb at 70 Knots it sets up close to a 1 to 1 1/2 nm downwind at circuit altitude.
Tempurture and altitudes do although affect climbing capabilities, but in my part of the country seems to work good for moi.

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:30 pm

Adam, I owned it. You can buy a good Champ these days for about $20k.

Climbing on Downwind?

Climbing on Downwind?

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