Question from the PSTAR

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

User avatar
flyingdan
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: Hamilton, ON

Question from the PSTAR

Post by flyingdan » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:26 am

Hi Everyone,

I recently wrote my PSTAR (and passed :D YAY!), however I had this question marked wrong:
A pilot is cleared to taxi to the runway in use without a hold short clearance. To get there, the aircraft must cross two taxiways and one runway. This authorizes the pilot to taxi to

(1) the runway in use, but must hold short. (They say this is correct)
(2) the runway in use, but further clearance is required to cross each taxiway and runway en route.
(3) position on the runway without further clearance.
(4) the runway in use, but further clearance is required to cross the other runway.(I said this was correct)
I chose answer (4). The school's answer key and the instructor I reviewed it with said the correct answer is (1).

What do you think the correct answer is? I'm just trying to make sure I'm learning it right the first time around.

Thanks for your input!
---------- ADS -----------
  
----------
Flying Dan
Co-host of Cleared En Route, the Canadian aviation and space exploration podcast!
Find it at www.ClearedEnRoute.com

User avatar
mabcan
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:30 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by mabcan » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:46 am

Well I would have said (4) as you. The answer of the AIM is clear on this point.

AIM RAC 4.2.5 p210, it says :
"If a pilot is required to cross any runway while taxiing towards the departure runway, the ground or airport controller will issue a specific instruction to cross or hold short.
If a specific authorization to cross was not received, pilots should hold short and request authorization to cross the runway."
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
200hr Wonder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:52 pm
Location: CYVR
Contact:

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by 200hr Wonder » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:33 am

A pilot is cleared to taxi to the runway in use without a hold short clearance. To get there, the aircraft must cross two taxiways and one runway. This authorizes the pilot to taxi to

(1) the runway in use, but must hold short. (They say this is correct)
(2) the runway in use, but further clearance is required to cross each taxiway and runway en route.
(3) position on the runway without further clearance.
(4) the runway in use, but further clearance is required to cross the other runway.(I said this was correct)
This is a really poorly worded question and with out the text of the clearance it becomes an English question more than weather you understand crossing of runways and hold short clearances.

The way I get 1 is that your received a taxi clearance without a hold short so your clearance may have been something like: "Taxi Charlie, Delta, Cross 07-25 contact tower 118.2 ready to go."

Which means you have been cleared to cross the runway. As always you must change from ground to tower in a controlled environment and receive clearance before crossing the hold short line of the active runway.

Now if your clearance was "Taxi Charlie, Delta, contact tower 118.2 ready to go." you can be damn sure I would call ground and confirm I am cleared to cross 07-25 as with out explicit instructions I never cross a runway! Better safe than sorry! CARS in the previous post backs that up. IMHO if TC Guy is listening this question would be about a million times more useful with a simulated clearance in the text!

Wow that is a lot of ! in this response!
---------- ADS -----------
  
Cheers,

200hr Wonder

User avatar
flyingdan
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: Hamilton, ON

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by flyingdan » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:09 am

The answer I just received from the g/s supervisor is:
This question is about the wording. Now the question stated that the aircraft has been cleared to the active runway without any hold short request in between. For example. "FABC, Ground. Cleared to taxi B, cross 21, to rwy 33". So the pilot is allowed to go to rwy 33 without hold short 21.

The answer you picked means that you will have to hold short 21 even though the ground controller has given a clearance to cross on initial instruction.
So I guess BOTH answers are right depending on your interpretation of "cleared to taxi to the runway without a hold short clearance." I'll make sure to pay attention when I have to cross a runway while taxiing :)
---------- ADS -----------
  
----------
Flying Dan
Co-host of Cleared En Route, the Canadian aviation and space exploration podcast!
Find it at www.ClearedEnRoute.com

User avatar
200hr Wonder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:52 pm
Location: CYVR
Contact:

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by 200hr Wonder » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:41 am

Don't worry I got that one wrong on my PSTAR too :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
  
Cheers,

200hr Wonder

Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Hedley » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:04 pm

(4) is wrong. You do not require clearance
to taxi across inactive runways. However,
a good look both ways before you do so is
always the best idea, because you're not
on TWR freq and thusly have no idea if ATC
has cleared anyone to land on it. They
shouldn't, but people do make mistakes.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
_dwj_
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:08 pm

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by _dwj_ » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:14 pm

According to Robyn, the correct answer is 4:

http://www.flyingstart.ca/FlightTraining/PSTAR/3Qs.htm

And that is what I would have chosen. I got 50/50 on my PSTAR, but I don't know if that question was on it or not - I just have the answer sheet.

See Robyn's commentary for why answer [1] is wrong.

Anyway, in real life you should always ask ATC to confirm if you are at all unsure whether you have a clearance for something.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
200hr Wonder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:52 pm
Location: CYVR
Contact:

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by 200hr Wonder » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:44 pm

_dwj_ wrote:According to Robyn, the correct answer is 4:

http://www.flyingstart.ca/FlightTraining/PSTAR/3Qs.htm

And that is what I would have chosen. I got 50/50 on my PSTAR, but I don't know if that question was on it or not - I just have the answer sheet.

See Robyn's commentary for why answer [1] is wrong.

Anyway, in real life you should always ask ATC to confirm if you are at all unsure whether you have a clearance for something.
_dwj_ if you read the question a second time it states:

Code: Select all

A pilot is cleared to taxi to the runway in use without a hold short clearance. To get there, the aircraft must cross two taxiways and one runway. This authorizes the pilot to taxi to
Now it is clear that you did not get a hold short. Does that mean the taxi clearance was:

Code: Select all

"F-ABC taxi delta, charlie cross 07-25 to runway 16, call tower 118.1 read to go" 
OR

Code: Select all

"F-ABC taxi delta, charlie to runway 16, call tower 118.1 read to go"
I personally think that both clearances could be possible as posed in the question. Neither have a hold short. One has an explicit runway crossing instruction and you are good to go. One does not. From having this go round on more than one occasion I have come to the conclusion that TC implied the first example when the question was created.

The other thing is I assume and perhaps a tower controller can verify this but ManOps would dictate that a taxi clearance must include crossing instructions for all runways. This could be totally wrong but from experience seems to hold true.


For those reasons I feel that 1. is the MOST correct.
Hedley:

Question for you, how can you be sure as you are on Ground that a runway is in fact inactive? I don't think there is a 100% reliable way to do this unless you have been given explicit instructions for crossing. It is possible that someone has requested the cross wind runway for training, got it and you don't know.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Cheers,

200hr Wonder

User avatar
mabcan
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:30 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by mabcan » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:12 pm

Hedley wrote:(4) is wrong. You do not require clearance
to taxi across inactive runways. However,
a good look both ways before you do so is
always the best idea, because you're not
on TWR freq and thusly have no idea if ATC
has cleared anyone to land on it. They
shouldn't, but people do make mistakes.
It doesn't say the runway is inactive.
But in any case, I agree to the fact of being careful. In doubt, just call.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
_dwj_
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:08 pm

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by _dwj_ » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:43 pm

200hr Wonder wrote: _dwj_ if you read the question a second time it states:

Code: Select all

A pilot is cleared to taxi to the runway in use without a hold short clearance. To get there, the aircraft must cross two taxiways and one runway. This authorizes the pilot to taxi to
Now it is clear that you did not get a hold short. Does that mean the taxi clearance was:

Code: Select all

"F-ABC taxi delta, charlie cross 07-25 to runway 16, call tower 118.1 read to go" 
OR

Code: Select all

"F-ABC taxi delta, charlie to runway 16, call tower 118.1 read to go"
I personally think that both clearances could be possible as posed in the question. Neither have a hold short. One has an explicit runway crossing instruction and you are good to go. One does not. From having this go round on more than one occasion I have come to the conclusion that TC implied the first example when the question was created.

The other thing is I assume and perhaps a tower controller can verify this but ManOps would dictate that a taxi clearance must include crossing instructions for all runways. This could be totally wrong but from experience seems to hold true.


For those reasons I feel that 1. is the MOST correct.
The question does not say that the controller has given you clearance to cross the intermediate runway. In real life the controller would presumably always give you an explicit clearance to cross the intermediate runway, but that is irrelevant here. The point of the question is to see if you understand that you need a clearance to cross a runway. Answer [1] is obviously wrong because you might not have the clearance to cross the intermediate runway. Answer [4] is the most correct because it ensures you have the clearance before crossing the runway - whether it is given to you (as in your first example), or you have to ask for it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

kudu
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:51 am
Location: Buttonhole

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by kudu » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:14 pm

Winning Answer:

DISCLAIMER: I know this guy... one hell of a guy

Hey flyingdan, sorry to hear you got a question wrong on the PSTAR. This was probably the simplest question on the test, from what I can remember (apart from that fur farm one).


Now let's imagine you actually have the right stuff and are on the main ramp and want to go to the active runway (let's say 09) to take-off on your first dual lesson, however to get there you must first cross another runway (let's say 18/36) and two taxiways (let's say A1 and A2).

You call up ground and cut off some real pilot getting his IFR clearance then you forget to tell them which ATIS you have... 10 minutes later you are cleared to the runway in use without a hold short clearance. This allows you to taxi to 09 which you have to hold short of regardless. The hold short clearance mentioned (the one you weren't issued) would have required you to hold short before crossing either 36, A1 or A2. Since you weren't given a hold short clearance, you can taxi across 36, across A1, across A2 to 09 where you must hold short, switch over to tower frequency (at a controlled a/p) and tell tower that you are ready for take-off.

I hope this made sense to you... I couldn't think of a simpler way to explain it.

P.S. ... BBQ tonight? And did you ask me about this before?- Sorry if I didn't clear it up then. Congrats btw.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Rudderless
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:36 pm

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Rudderless » Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:58 pm

You have been cleared to the runway in use. Period. If they wanted you to hold short of any runways/taxiways on the way there, ATC would issue a specific "hold short" clearance which you would then have to read back.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
_dwj_
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:08 pm

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by _dwj_ » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:24 pm

Rudderless wrote:You have been cleared to the runway in use. Period. If they wanted you to hold short of any runways/taxiways on the way there, ATC would issue a specific "hold short" clearance which you would then have to read back.
Apparently you didn't read the AIM - it says that if you don't get a specific authorization to cross the runway, you must host short until you get a clearance. The correct answer is obviously [4]. I don't know why this is so difficult for some people to grasp...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Tango01
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1139
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:00 pm
Location: ON

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Tango01 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:07 am

The answe is 1. Simple. Even without a "hold short" in the clearance, you cannot enter the active runway.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Timing is everything.

User avatar
200hr Wonder
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:52 pm
Location: CYVR
Contact:

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by 200hr Wonder » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:33 am

Tango01 I really suggest you re-read the question, it says taxi TO as in up to but not into.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Cheers,

200hr Wonder

User avatar
_dwj_
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:08 pm

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by _dwj_ » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:28 am

Tango01 wrote:The answe is 1. Simple. Even without a "hold short" in the clearance, you cannot enter the active runway.
I see your point...you still need to hold short once you reach the runway in use because you haven't been given clearance to line up or take off. But [1] is wrong too because you need the clearance to cross the other runway.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Ref Plus 10
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Wherever the winds may take me...and the paycheque

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Ref Plus 10 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:02 am

For fear of beating this to death, I'll make this brief. My interpretation is that you are cleared to the active runway "without a hold short clearance" which would lead one to believe that you have been cleared (ex. ABC taxi Charlie, cross 07-25, Delta, contact tower 118.3 for takeoff) for the whole route the controller intends for you to follow.

I don't think there's a whole lot of other ways to have worded this question to get answer #4. I agree, it's a Transport question extraordinaire, but to arrive at answer 4 they would have had to say something along the lines of being cleared to the active runway but holding short (ABC taxi charlie hold short 07-25). Thanks transport for yet another clear as mud question!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Highflyinpilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 864
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:30 am
Location: Holy Hell, is that what you look like in the morning

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Highflyinpilot » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:50 pm

Yep I'd have to agree with ref plus 10, Well it's to say that would be my answer, number 1.

However this is a very ambigouis (I think that's how it's spelled) question. I could see where one would pick 4.
---------- ADS -----------
  

jtx2
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:45 pm
Location: Albertashire

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by jtx2 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:20 pm

Surely there are two aspects to this question:

1 - TC's questions.
2 - Practical safety.

The more TC exams you write the more examples of badly-worded questions you'll find. You will also find questions that have no correct answer, just one that is less incorrect than the others. I found a couple of these in INRAT and CPL and, as I'd been teaching the particular subject for the last 30 years, after the exam I mentioned the errors and offered to provide the correct answer (politely, not trying to be the smart ar**) but was told that the guys in Ottawa knew what they were doing and the correct answer was there. Fortunately, I didn't need those marks to pass, but somebody might and it would be a shame for someone to fail just because they chose the wrong incorrect answer out of four incorrect ones.

On the practical side, I think the point has already been made and ATC would normally give a crossing clearance, or hold short. The one growth area in Flight Safety Hazards is runway incursions, and I wouldn't want to cross any potentially active runway without specific clearance, so, if I didn't have one, I would check. Pity the question didn't make this clear.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:43 pm

Life will really get exciting now that so many schools are bringing in foreign students.

If TC and the native Canadians can't understand each other any better than this I think I'll get in the business of selling seats out side of airports ( At a safe distance of course. ) to watch the gong show and listen in on portable radios.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.

User avatar
Ref Plus 10
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Wherever the winds may take me...and the paycheque

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Ref Plus 10 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:43 pm

---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:23 pm

You shouldn't have posted that because TC will hire those guys to write new exams if they read this.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

User avatar
Ref Plus 10
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:00 pm
Location: Wherever the winds may take me...and the paycheque

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by Ref Plus 10 » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:44 pm

In that case, at least some of the ZBB students would have it a little easier...and the questions would be CLEARLY fu.ked up, not just muddled
---------- ADS -----------
  

AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3080
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:53 pm

Here's from the AIM:
Upon receipt of a normal taxi authorization, a pilot is expected to proceed to the taxi-holding position for the runway assigned for takeoff. If a pilot is required to cross any runway while taxiing towards the departure runway, the ground or airport controller will issue a specific instruction to cross or hold short. If a specific authorization to cross was not received, pilots should hold short and request authorization to cross the runway.
So, given that question, we can eighter assume that the pilot was given the clearance to cross (as it is expected from controllers) or he was not given the clearance to cross nor the instruction to hold short. In case #1, answer 1 is correct. In case #2, answer 4 is correct.

In Canada, you need a specific clearance to cross any runway (not only active runways). In the States, it's a little different. If they tell you "Taxi C hold short 36" and you have to cross 31 in the process, well you are cleared to go ahead and cross 31. They will tell you to hold short if they want you to.

Clear as mud?

AuxBatOn
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

767
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:21 am

Re: Question from the PSTAR

Post by 767 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:12 pm

the answer is 1.. i can answer the question without reading the question.. its the PSTAR!! :)
---------- ADS -----------
  
Never buy 1$ tickets

Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”