Lets turn off the GPS

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Doc
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Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Doc » Sat May 03, 2008 9:43 pm

Wonder what would happen if we turned the GPS off, and tossed that new pilot an LE and a sectional? "You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......." I think it'd be an eye opener. Thoughts?
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Cold_Lake_Hvy » Sat May 03, 2008 10:02 pm

First thought... Not an issue.

I mean what the FRIG do you think I have INS for?

But if you want me to play along, I'll bite.

So I'm a new low time GA monkey and my GPS takes a dump? Here's what I'm thinking "Gee, why didn't I take that recruiter up on his offer. What's 7 years post wings?"
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by THEICEMAN » Sat May 03, 2008 10:38 pm

"You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......."
Yes, those skills are extremely important. But you can't deny that the GPS is a great aid.

I ran into this older fellow who told me that he never did a racetrack in his 30,000+ hours, until he used a Garmin 430. It all changed.....

With the tin cans I fly, the VNC is all I got. Sometimes I wish I could get my hands on a 196 because it can get annoying when you have one hand on the stick & the other with an E6B, while reading the vnc on my lap.
Maybe it's just me? :?:
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by C-GGGQ » Sun May 04, 2008 1:47 am

my instructor didn't let me turn the GPS (196) in the 172 on till the flight after my private flight test. I prefer the GPS of course but i can sure as hell map read (even at 20 feet off the deck like i had to prove the other day) :wink:
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Hedley » Sun May 04, 2008 5:22 am

I tell all my students that they would be insane
not to have a GPS for x/c.

However, every time you get a piece of new
equipment, you have to learn to deal with
it's failure.

With GPS, it's really, really simple to deal
with it's failure.

After you've levelled off, and pushed on
the rudder pedals so that the "bearing to"
and "track to" numbers are the same ...

Write down your heading, and your gps ETA.

If the GPS dies, HOLD THE HEADING and
LOOK DOWN AT THE ETA.

This really isn't very complicated. All navigation
is about heading and time. Doesn't really
matter what the underlying technology is.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by seniorpumpkin » Sun May 04, 2008 10:31 am

That's damn good advice Hedley! It's funny how sometimes the most basic things are overlooked.
I didn't use a GPS for any of my initial 200 hours. I'm glad I didn't, I still feel confident in my ability to map-read and also navigate by ADF/VOR. I think these are really essential skills to have and also skills that you can easily forget over time. Map reading down south where there are roads and towns is one thing, but for all you <200 types, trying to follow the map in the north will likely take everything you've got!
That being said, when I actually started to get paid to fly, I was a little behind on the use of a GPS, which is all anybody ever really uses on a regular basis. I was actually kind of relieved when the guys sitting next to me would turn it off and see if I could still get us home.
Anyways, from now on I will be writing down my GPS track and ETA when I level off, thanks Hedley! :prayer:
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Adam Oke » Sun May 04, 2008 10:37 am

I think students should learn how to fly with out GPS, and should learn XC's with out GPS. Once they can prove the "old" pencil and paper method then they can move on to ADF, VOR, GPS instruments.

Mainly because I carried out my training in the cadet program at a school that had a couple 172's and the rest of the fleet was DA-20's. All the -20's had GPS ... Cessna's were "old school". I flew the 172 along with a few other guys and all the light weights flew the -20's.

Come flight test time when the GPS circuit breaker was pulled, majority of the DA-20 pilots failed their flight test. WAY to relient on technology. While us Cessna guys with the older equiptment, pencil and paper passed with flying colours. Yet flying a simple GPS is exactly that.....simple. Direct to such and such .... Distance, Speed, Time, Bearing, Track ... Too easy to convert from Penicl and Paper to GPS. But the other way around proved a significant fail rate.

Pull the circuit breakers on the GPS until they learn how to fly right.

Once I started working up north where there was just lakes and trees ... VNC's being thrown out the window becuase the detail sucked. Making use of MNR maps for fire reporting (way more detailed). My CP said I can only punch in the GPS coordinates for places I've flown to on paper. Fair Trade. Leared alot about map reading, and could recognize lakes ALOT better.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by MichaelP » Sun May 04, 2008 10:54 am

The Katana flies perfectly well with the GPS turned off.
In China I used to turn the G1000 PFD off and put the MFD on the unusable traffic page... We had some basic maps, not very good and very old, the moving map was somewhat essential, but I still wanted to know they could navigate back to base if the G1000 failed altogether and without incurring the wrath of the Chinese military.

I have navigated across Europe many times without radio navigation equipmant and even without a radio at all, and I am a strong believer in learning dead reckoning and map reading.
Map reading gives you better situational awareness skills.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by iflyforpie » Sun May 04, 2008 11:52 am

It would depend on the type of pilot I would think. Most 'new' pilots still have ground school, nav logs, and E6Bs still fresh in their head. Some old pilots are so gadget crazed now I wonder if they would even make it to an airport. One aircraft annual I am doing right now looks like a museum for old VNCs and Flight Supp; I didn't know the Flight Supp used to be white.

When I did my commercial training we had two 172s, one with a GPS and one without. For some reason I almost always got the one without.

I use the GPS a lot now but I don't think I would miss it too much here in BC. Pilotage is pretty easy here since each valley is different and you can follow them like roads. Even going in a straight line you can pick out geographical features very easily.

Can say the same about the prairies though, but at least you can fly low and look at the road signs.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Sun May 04, 2008 12:00 pm

Map reading is the only real safe way to navigate.

Before we left places such as Dakar for Natal I drew the track lines on the maps and put my 25 mile X marks on them.

Obviously map reading was the answer because we found Natal right on time. :mrgreen:
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by SQ » Sun May 04, 2008 12:04 pm

THEICEMAN wrote: With the tin cans I fly, the VNC is all I got
do you need anything else to fly a 1600lbs tin can ? :roll:

with a watch, a vnc and some basic maths you should be abble to go from an ocean to another, dont even need a compass or an e6b.

at least I would believe you if you would use a WAC, but it ain't the case though......
:roll: :roll:
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by 200hr Wonder » Sun May 04, 2008 1:46 pm

Funny story, way back when, ok really not that long ago when I did my 300nm X-country from Boundry Bay to Sprinbank I was going to take a plane with two radios, a GPS, VOR, ADF. Alas due to a sang I ended up taking a plane with one radio, a sketchy ADF. Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
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Adam Oke
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Adam Oke » Sun May 04, 2008 1:54 pm

200hr Wonder wrote: Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
Pretty sure listening to oldies on the ADF just makes a 300 that much better! Majority of my local training I was tuned into CHOK Swap Shop Radio :lol:
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by SkyWolfe » Sun May 04, 2008 2:06 pm

200hr Wonder wrote:Funny story, way back when, ok really not that long ago when I did my 300nm X-country from Boundry Bay to Sprinbank I was going to take a plane with two radios, a GPS, VOR, ADF. Alas due to a sang I ended up taking a plane with one radio, a sketchy ADF. Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.

I think my trip was comparable... I have a good idea which two planes you may have taken :P
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by iflyforpie » Sun May 04, 2008 2:10 pm

200hr Wonder wrote:Made to Springbank and back with just my map and the ADF used to listen to some oldies tunes. Made it just fine, even managed to make it on time! Thought it was a great expierence.
Yeah the ADF is always good for doing that. I was air commuting between the Lower Mainland, Okanagan, and East Kootenays last summer and I had the ol' ADF to make the buck 72 go a little faster. But going direct means you miss most of the towns (south of #1, north of #3). I spent a lot of time looking through the Flight Supp to find stations and it seemed they were always fuzzy or talk radio.

I only had a crappy GPS 95 so maps, bearing, distance, and time were a must and although I had VOR, I wasn't on airways.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by THEICEMAN » Sun May 04, 2008 4:27 pm

do you need anything else to fly a 1600lbs tin can ?

with a watch, a vnc and some basic maths you should be abble to go from an ocean to another, dont even need a compass or an e6b.

at least I would believe you if you would use a WAC, but it ain't the case though......
What are you talking about??? Why would I use a WAC chart to fly within 125 NM of my home airport???? Do you know what your talking about???

All I use in the airplane is an E6B, watch, VNC and Weather reports/Notams.......So believe me, I know how to fly without GPS!

Maybe you didn't get the point? I was trying to say that I would like to have Garmin 196 to make my job a bit easier because sometimes it can get difficult.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by SQ » Sun May 04, 2008 4:53 pm

I don't know if I have a point to specify
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?


flying by the GPS is the most boring flying you can ever do.
much more funny to look down and see the shadows of the tree, the sun on the lakes, color of the fields etc, all that makes VFR flying interesting.
no ?

about IFR flying without GPS, I don't have any idea about it. all I know is that a bunch of guys would get lost.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by SAR_YQQ » Sun May 04, 2008 6:00 pm

Three words:

Watch - Map - Ground

Military pilots aren't allowed to use any nav aids or GPS until they get their Wings. I used the GPS on the Harvard 2 to keep my taxi speed below 10 kts - that's it.

Low level navigation involved flying 500' AGL, 240 Kts G/S and arriving at each turn point within seconds of pre-calculated times.

On the mighty Buff - we use the VNC to its fullest, the 196 backs us up for Lat/Long.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun May 04, 2008 6:09 pm

SAR_YQQ wrote:Three words:

Watch - Map - Ground

Military pilots aren't allowed to use any nav aids or GPS until they get their Wings. I used the GPS on the Harvard 2 to keep my taxi speed below 10 kts - that's it.

Low level navigation involved flying 500' AGL, 240 Kts G/S and arriving at each turn point within seconds of pre-calculated times.

On the mighty Buff - we use the VNC to its fullest, the 196 backs us up for Lat/Long.
Actually, there is 1 System's Nav flight after the BNT! (Might have changed since you went through)

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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Cat Driver » Sun May 04, 2008 6:40 pm

"You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......."
Definitely you need the ADF, anyone who thinks a GPS is better than an ADF should have their license suspended.
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by THEICEMAN » Sun May 04, 2008 8:13 pm

I don't know if I have a point to specify
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?
Oh please don't tell me how to do my job! Do you have any 702 real world experience? Why do I get the feeling that I am talking to a student pilot?

The cub is a lot tighter then your average ppl cessna & it's not as easier as you think when your banking 60+ degrees to take pictures. With no side slots, it's not as simple as putting papers on the dash. The only place I can put stuff is under my legs.


Take a look inside, not much room is there?
Image

Now, I am not talking about replacing the papers for the GPS. That's crazy talk!
But the Garmin 196 is the kind of tool that can make life easier & that you cannot deny!

Anyways...this is going nowhere!
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun May 04, 2008 8:27 pm

THEICEMAN wrote:
I don't know if I have a point to specify
what you described is just basic skills known as cockpit organization and evaluated during the PPL flight test.
I believe that if you would consider a GPS as a relief in a 125NM radius from your base in a tin can, unless you fly in extreme SVFR or IFR-wich is marginal in a tin can-, I'm afraid you should go back to school.
in other words, I would agree with you considering the GPS a relief in a King Air or bigger at a 5 digit altitude and in VFR (using the WAC charts), otherwise in IFR you don't need a GPS either.
copy ?
Oh please don't tell me how to do my job! Do you have any 702 real world experience? Why do I get the feeling that I am talking to a student pilot?

The cub is a lot tighter then your average ppl cessna & it's not as easier as you think when your banking 60+ degrees to take pictures. With no side slots, it's not as simple as putting papers on the dash. The only place I can put stuff is under my legs.


Take a look inside, not much room is there?
Image

Now, I am not talking about replacing the papers for the GPS. That's crazy talk!
But the Garmin 196 is the kind of tool that can make life easier & that you cannot deny!

Anyways...this is going nowhere!
Oh don't make me cry with your "lack of space" :) I've seen and flown significantly worse and still navigated using a map, a clock, a compass and a set of EyeBall Mk1 ;) It doesn't take much to accomodate a sheet of paper!

Can I ask a question? Why do you feel you NEED to use your E6B in flight??

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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun May 04, 2008 8:28 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
"You can use the ADF, VOR, or you can map read......."
Definitely you need the ADF, anyone who thinks a GPS is better than an ADF should have their license suspended.
Damn right, can't listen to AM radio with the GPS!
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by Cat Driver » Sun May 04, 2008 8:32 pm

Can I ask a question? Why do you feel you NEED to use your E6B in flight??
Do pilots still use an E6B?

What do they use it for?
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Re: Lets turn off the GPS

Post by trey kule » Sun May 04, 2008 9:51 pm

Mr. Lamar....I love the GPS. dont ever want to turn it off.

But here is something. I see poster after poster mentioning watches, maps etc. timing is half of it. Heading is the other. If you cant hold a heading , at the very least you are going to have a wobbley flight path. Surprising no. of pilots can not do it. Surprising no. dont know how to hold a heading VFR using outside reference points (ie. looking out the window..a new experience sensation to many of the new breed of pilots)

When I learned to fly in the 60's, it was referred to as ded (as in deduced) reckoning. When we followed a map it was called pilotage or something similar. Seems to have morphed a bit.

When you cruising over an ocean or the white tundra of the high arctic maps dont help all that much. You just gotta hold a heading until you can pick up an alternate navigation source (and yes cat, I know how to do a star shot..)

What most pilots need when the GPS decides to do its own thing is to relax.
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