Work hours

[chewsta]

Here is a question for the instructors:

How do you feel about your duty times not being regulated by the CARS? Would you like to see limitions similar to the Part 7 operators? Do you prefer not having limits as it lets you set your own schedule? Do you feel pressure from CFI's about working too much for your own health during the busy season (ie Air Cadets 7 days a week for 8 weeks)?

Just curious.

[looproll]

Working here as a flight instructor and charter pilot, the CARs part 7 limitations apparently do apply to me. I think a lot a people do instruction as a stepping stone to build time, so it's kind of nice not to have a cap on your flight duty time. I see some fellow instructors that work 18+ hour days though, and by the end of the day I'm not sure how much the student is really getting out of it. Not to mention the fatigue factor of the poor instructor! The boss usually screams "keep the planes flying!", right? But at what cost? Tired instructors that slip through the regs with no limits on their duty time can't be very safe compared to one that is well rested. Although it's nice for the young, eager pilot trying to build that time for a future job. I don't mind working hard at flight instruction, but it might be nice to have a reasonable cap as to how much we can fly in a given period. All work and no beer makes Homer go crazy.

[ahramin]

Well, we are talking about instructing here right. Not exactly exhausting work. I am sure there are a ton of instructors out there who can go all day without a degradation in the level of service. The silly fact is that the same limits on duty days apply to firebombing and sched runs equally. Duty day rules are there so that we can point to them and say to our employers: "I can't work twenty hours straight." and as such are necessary but if no one tried to take advantage of anyone else we could just fly until we need a break.

Plouffy, have a look next door sometime and see what real work is. All those lights and dials to watch *sigh* You've got it too easy now that you have a peon to do the fuelling for you.

ahramin

[5x5]

ahramin, I agree that instructing isn't physically demanding, but mentally and sometimes emotionally (read frustration) it can be very taxing. I think that any instructor worth his salt would realize that after 4
(maybe 5 at the most) 2 hour sessions they're toast for the day. The student expects, and more importantly, deserves to have someone flying with him who is sharp, prepared and ready to provide help immediately if needed. A good instructor also has to be observant and able to assess what's going wrong and provide solid, helpful, well thought-out advice for corrections. And when you're beat, that doesn't happen so easy.

And any instructor "...who can go all day without a degradation in the level of service..." wouldn't be one I'd fly with in the first place cause the only way there wouldn't be degradation is if they were really shitty to begin with.

[Right Seat Captain]

Personally, I feel it is fine without restrictions on duty time. But I work at a school with a boss that is very understanding of tired people, and tries to look out for us, and tries to keep us off a schedule that would exhaust. He realizes that a tired instructor is generally punchy and impatient. But it si nice to have the flexibility for me to know if I can keep going, I am allowed to. I think it would be in a CFI/Ops Manager's best interest not to overwork instructors, because not only is it a safety issue, but since there's one on one customer relations, it drives away the business.

On the otherhand, I'm quite surprised TC hasn't regulated it. Knowing the highly regulated way they want us to teach flying to people, why haven't they regulated how much we can fly with people in a day, week, month and year? They claim they have said regulated training, since training new pilots is very important. Well why have they stopped short of ensuring their instructor pawns are well rested?

[ndb]

I can't possibly be the only flight instructor to have fallen asleep in the right seat. At least two other 10,000+ hour instructors (the honest ones) I know have fallen asleep while instructing, too.

I remember doing circuits, and I was so tired, I'd doze off after takeoff, snooze on downwind, and try to wake up on short final for the flare and landing, then after takeoff, I could snooze again.

If I was a student in that situation, I could only take it as a tremendous vote of confidence by the instructor in my abilities

Long summer days. Get up at six, and fly until midnight doing night ratings. I know instructing isn't "hard work" but you try doing that for 90 days in a row. Even on crappy days, you don't get any time off because your instrument students want the actual, and if it's forecast to stay above minimums, out into the rain you go.

You can't get a nap during the day, either - *ssholes with some sort of demented protestant work ethic think it's a great time to play practical jokes, because "hard workers" don't sleep on the job. What a bunch of ignorant mouth-breathers.

Flight instructors - the good ones, at least - are incredibly underpaid. Who else would you entrust your life to, for less than minimum wage?

I'm so glad I'm out of that rat race. Let someone else take that thankless job and earn squat.

[I'd Rather Be Flying]

Where I work, we have to record duty times (but half of my flying is not instructing).

I agree that many instructors (at least the ones who are busy) can be fatigued and are flying when they shouldn't be after working long hours (whether teaching groundschool, or sitting in the right seat). This creates an unpleasant environment for everyone. And the student or customer is not learning as much as they could from an instructor who is tired or bored. And ultimately, safety could be compromised.

Sitting in an airplane (unless you're a passenger and have nothing to do with the safe operation of the machine) will unknowingly put you in a place you shouldn't be. We've all flown while tired and not feeling one hundred per cent, and sometimes those circumstances are out of our control.

But the PIC has the ultimate responsibility....just remember that little fact when and if something should go wrong.

[Murdoch86]

I know that after I've done 4-5 flighs, I start to get tired.

Also what helps is good ramp people who can help out. Nothing I hate more than almost hopping in a plane and getting called out to "do something else". A good ground crew is worth it's weight in gold. I you have to fuel, that's time your lossing w/ the student.

And then there's putting all the planes away at the end of the day by your self. With no lights (or the planes nav lights) to get them tight in the hangar.

Then you go work your real job to earn you money to pay the bills.

At somepoint you'll get some sleep.

D

[clubzed]

Hi Chewsta,

Personally, the more hours flying the better - BRING IT ON!!. Every hour worked is an hour less between me and a real job (such as a job where you don't spend all your money getting trained only to be paid less than and deal with more crap than the guys cleaning the washrooms!!).

Both Instructors and Transport seem to take our jobs seriously so I think it's about time we got paid seriously as well. But hey, I'm not the first to complain and I won't be the last I'm sure.

Is it just me or am I having a bad day?!! - KEEP THE DREAM ALIVE!!

[107]

Man, the memories Murdoch ... But someone has to say this, thank god TC doesn't regulate the instructors... yet (until there's an accident linked to fatigue to change the regs like in any other bureaucratic red tape industry), but some of us have to eat!! Even if it is just hampster pellets when cat food prices sore with inflation And as far as snoozing in the right seet, haven't been guilty of it yet, but apparently the student doesn't log it as solo if we do, or so I found out by the dirty look I got when I asked my PPL instructor when we got back to the club ... must have been a nice landing ... but oye ... the look ...
Cheers!!

[Right Seat Captain]

Personally, the more hours flying the better - BRING IT ON!!.

Hi clubzed,

I know an instructor who once had the same idea. They pushed themselves until until one day they scared themselved because they were too tired and not paying enough attention. They thought they were, but later realized that they missed it because they were thinking about sleeping. In otherwords, they realized that they had better change that attitude, or else they'd get themsleves and a student killed.

It's also been my experience that instructors with the same attitude tend to be horrible instructors. Students can tell if ou're there to instruct, or there to move on. And quite frankly, since they're there to learn, they hope you're in the same game with them. If you're insrtucting, regardless of why you need the hours, enjoy it while you're there, and work to instruct, not to move on. Worry about moving on in your off time.

[bobcat18]

I agree with RSC if you are instructing intruct to teach not just build time remember the student is PAYING for this.

If you are going to do a half assed job or just in it for hours please do your students a favour and hand your students to some one who cares how well they are taught.

[Shiny Side Up]

I'll chip in with RSC, If you're up for putting in a long day then by all means, hey there's enough instructing days where you sit and watch it snow or something. But as an instructor you have the responsibility to know when you've had enough. Its not fair to you or the student. With the exception of some of the dual navigation work I usually refuse to spend more than the hour lesson with a student. I don't feel that anyone should be subjected to my bizarre personality for that long. If they want to do a lesson take a break then another then that's fine. Hey after an hour the student is usually doing two things: They're either improving - so its time for another bit of reading, briefing and next lesson - no point doing two hours of this. Or they're getting worse and the best bet is to step back take a break and start fresh.

And anyone who thinks instructing isn't tiring should sit in a 152 with a three hundred pounder in +30 degree heat and bounce through the circuit for an hour or more. Now fuel up and repeat.

The only thing that pisses me off is when you get some guy who comes to you and bitches that the training is costing too much and asks if you'll "cut him a deal" on your instructing rate. Hey! Its bad enough that I'm almost doing this as a volunteer sometimes! In all the years I've been doing this only one student has come to me and said "You guys must like doing this because you're certainly not getting paid enough." I just about cried.

[clubzed]

One for Right Seat Captain,

Generalisations are, as always, dangerous. Don't confuse an instructor's ambition to move on and up with the quality of instruction being given.

For those who want to instruct until they retire, I have nothing but praise and admiration because I know the benefits are few and far between. I simply expressed my view that instruction is 'generally' under-paid given the demanding environment in which we operate.

Live and let live brother/sister

Clubzed

[m.L]

I think almost every one has had a Instructer fall asleep. When I was doing my cross country nights dual mine did and I dont blame her in the least. She would be at the school by 7:00 am and fly all day and then have to fly at night for the night students. Lets see, hmmmmmmmm only a 18 hour day six days a week and to get paid crap. What a life.

[cyyz]

All the captains in here can be <shhh>.

Does it matter if your instructor is flying for 15 hours or if they fly 5 hours and then go to their part time job(8+ hr) to make some real cash?

The morning student suffers because they "just woke up".
The evening student suffers because they're "falling asleep".

All the other students suffer because the instructor has done stalls for the last 2 years and this will be 1000th+ stall and has become so bored with instructing.

If you can fly 20/hrs a day, power to you. PIC takes the blame for most accidents and incidents. It's your arse (and the students?) on the line if you're tired and you crash. Students can sue for negligence.. =)

[RadMan]

I've worked both a few seasons bush flying on floats and a few winters teaching ab-initio and I can honestly say that I was far more spent from teaching students than flying Americans, Camps and Native Peoples...

I personally feel that duty days and times should be regulated for instructors. The work they do is no less valuable or serious than any other pilot's. In fact, I find it paradoxical that the most fundamental stage of flying is taught by the least experienced. I've seen both employers and pilots from both instructing and charter/bush be irresponsible, and ya sure many pilots can self-govern themselves safely MOST OF THE TIME, but we are all human and do make mistakes.

Regs are there to protect employers and employees from themselves (and as much as we often don't like to admit it, our industry needs it), but most importantly to protect the public from us. I haven't seen any pilot instructing or otherwise flying 8+ and work 14+ hours without ill-affect that took themselves seriously.

Usually people that are busy time-building aren't busy enough learning.

My 2 cents.

[Right Seat Captain]

I find it kind of interesting that some people on here think its okay for a PIC to fall asleep once in a while while flying a C-172. Makes me wonder how much they value their lives, or their careers...

[Special K]

Ahramin:
were you ever an instructor?

K

[ahramin]

Glider instructor.

And i do intrument ratings (for private owners) and do taildragger conversions. Why?