Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

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Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by skybaron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:38 am

Curious to know exactly who logs PIC time with a safety pilot arrangement for instrument refresher flights?

CARS reference?
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:57 am

I did that, around 20 years ago, when I finally got around to doing my instrument rating. The DOT Examiner (no delegates in those days) said you couldn't do that, and I replied that nowhere in the PLH or Air Regs or ANO's, said that you couldn't. He called his boss's boss, who agreed with me, and I did my initial group 3 instrument ride.

This predates the CARs, but AFAIK there is nothing in the CARs prohibiting this, and as long as it is not specifically prohibited, it is therefore permitted, modulo CAR 602.01 which IMHO doesn't apply in this case, and Lord knows I've argued 602.01 over many years, representing myself at the Tribunal, Tribunal Review, Federal Court and Federal Court of Appeals.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:24 am

If its towards an instrument rating the safety pilot logs PIC, but they must meet the below.
CAR 425.21 wrote:(9) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, have an instrument rating and:

(a) have a flight instructor rating; or

(b) have experience of not less than 500 hours pilot-in-command flight time, of which:

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group, and

(ii) in the case of Group I aircraft, not less than 10 hours shall be on the type of multi-engine aeroplane used for the training.
If it not towards an instrument rating than the only way you both can log time is if the airplane requires two crew. Hedley is correct but you probably could get into hot water if you don't have a valid instrument rating.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by KK7 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:39 am

So long as you have a licence, you can fly around with someone in the other seat any time. If you so choose, you can have that person be your eyes outside so long as you feel they are competent to do so. This could be a pilot or not, but I would suggest someone who knows what they are looking for - ie a pilot. You can be the PIC, and the other person is just a passenger and tells you when you need to look outside for some important reason like traffic or obstacles. This safety person does not require any qualifications.

This is all of course for the purpose of simply practicing instrument flying once you are licences, lets say if for example you have a renewal ride coming up and need some practice to polish your skills if you haven't flown on instruments in a while. If however you require training, then you revert to the above mentioned CARs where that person must have certain qualifications.

Whenever you have two pilots sitting in the front of an airplane, there should always be a discussion as to who is the PIC and who is not, and what each person's respective duties are.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Tim » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:49 am

FlaplessDork wrote:If its towards an instrument rating the safety pilot logs PIC, but they must meet the below.

CAR 425.21

If it not towards an instrument rating than the only way you both can log time is if the airplane requires two crew. Hedley is correct but you probably could get into hot water if you don't have a valid instrument rating.

you don't need an instrument rating to be a safety pilot for someone who is notworking towards a inst rating. moncton flight college routinely sends students to act as safety pilots with other students for solo instrument practice. in fact, it's part of the syllabus. the rule there is the safety pilot must have a PPL or better.

makes sense since you are obviously flying VFR, and the safety pilot is only ensuring traffic and terrain avoidance and working the radios, not that you are following instrument procedures.

TC is very aware of every little aspect of MFC's operation, so if they had a problem with it, it would have been brought up long ago.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by skybaron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:53 am

KK7 wrote: This is all of course for the purpose of simply practicing instrument flying once you are licences, lets say if for example you have a renewal ride coming up and need some practice to polish your skills if you haven't flown on instruments in a while. If however you require training, then you revert to the above mentioned CARs where that person must have certain qualifications.
Actually, this is exactly the reason I posted the question.
I have a renewal coming up, and I haven't flown instruments in a while. While always beneficial, I don't feel I require additional training on procedures, thus don't want the added cost of an instructor on board.



In such a case, just to clarify - how would it be logged, say if practicing instruments in VMC at night?

I'm assuming:
PIC (x hours); Night (x hours); hood (x hours)
perhaps add safety pilot in the remarks section to satisfy TC.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:00 am

If however you require training, then you revert to the above mentioned CARs where that person must have certain qualifications
But not ALL of the 40 hours of hood time, required for an initial IFR, have to be dual from a "qualified person". See CAR 421.46(2)(b)(ii):
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:

(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,

(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9);
Depending on how you read the above, you can log 20 or 25 hours of hood time as PIC for your initial IFR, with your dog in the right seat as safety pilot, assuming your dog has reasonable vision and has been trained to provide a lookout for terrain and other aircraft.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:06 am

skybaron wrote:I'm assuming:
PIC (x hours); Night (x hours); hood (x hours)
perhaps add safety pilot in the remarks section to satisfy TC.
Log PIC, at night, and instrument time that you flew.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:09 am

Hedley wrote:
If however you require training, then you revert to the above mentioned CARs where that person must have certain qualifications
But not ALL of the 40 hours of hood time, required for an initial IFR, have to be dual from a "qualified person". See CAR 421.46(2)(b)(ii):
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:

(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,

(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9);
Depending on how you read the above, you can log 20 or 25 hours of hood time as PIC for your initial IFR, with your dog in the right seat as safety pilot, assuming your dog has reasonable vision and has been trained to provide a lookout for terrain and other aircraft.
Just to play devil's advocate here, one could argue you are conducting self training towards the instrument rating, and therefore must meet the qualified person requirements in order to train yourself. ;)
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:13 am

Read the CAR. You need 40 hours of instrument time. Max 20 hrs of that is from a "qualified person". How you get the other 20 hrs of instrument time is up to you, and hood on, logging PIC with fido in the right seat will do it.

PS I was self-taught for IFR. Got the sign-off from a part-time corporate pilot that I flew with once. I also taught myself aerobatics, formation, formation aerobatics and low-altitude aerobatics. I also have checked myself out on many strange aircraft - all because there was no one around to teach me.

For example, formation aerobatics. I asked everywhere. No instruction available, and no one would even talk to me about it. So, self-taught. Now, I know far more about formation aerobatics than most ICAS ACE's that are qualified to renew my ticket. How much negative G formation aerobatics have you done?

Not everything in life is learned by spoon feeding.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:31 am

Hedley wrote:Read the CAR. You need 40 hours of instrument time. Max 20 hrs of that is from a "qualified person". How you get the other 20 hrs of instrument time is up to you, and hood on, logging PIC with fido in the right seat will do it.

PS I was self-taught for IFR. Got the sign-off from a part-time corporate pilot that I flew with once. I also taught myself aerobatics, formation, formation aerobatics and low-altitude aerobatics. I also have checked myself out on many strange aircraft - all because there was no one around to teach me.

For example, formation aerobatics. I asked everywhere. No instruction available, and no one would even talk to me about it. So, self-taught. Now, I know far more about formation aerobatics than most ICAS ACE's that are qualified to renew my ticket. How much negative G formation aerobatics have you done?

Not everything in life is learned by spoon feeding.
CAR 425.21 states that anyone conducting training towards an instrument rating must hold an instrument rating, and meet qualified person requirements or be an instructor. Anyone who conducts training, self training included, must meet Part 4 requirements.
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Last edited by FlaplessDork on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:30 am

You are reading something into the CARs that is simply not there.

The CARs say you need 40 hours of instrument time for an instrument rating, and that only 15 hours of that time must be received from a "qualified person"as per 425.21.

It does NOT specify how the other 20 hours of instrument time are to be accumulated. If you want to do it as PIC with a hood on, sure, that's ok, because it doesn't say you CAN'T do it. I might humbly suggest that you don't do it solo - CAR 602.01 applies. Bring your trained monkey for the right seat to act as lookout.

Just read CAR 421.46(2)(b)(ii). It's really not that complicated. I posted it above. Read it.

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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:37 am

Anyone who conducts training, self training included, must meet Part 4 requirements
Sure, but you're off in wrong direction. Look at CAR 421.46:
(2) Requirements
(b) Experience
An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time
where does the word "training" appear in that excerpt of CAR 421.46? Hint: it does NOT. It specifies EXPERIENCE, with respect to the 40 hours of instrument time, not TRAINING.

Understand, now? You are reading something into CAR 421.46 which simply is not there.

Please don't make up your own regulations, or add your own requirements to them. Over many decades I have seen many people do it, and it is silly. I remember, years ago, at the Kingston Flying Club, some young instructor barking out to everyone in the room that you were required to carry a VNC and CFS on board for day VFR, which of course is simply not true. The CARs do not require it. He was making up his own rules, and looked quite silly for it.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:47 am

Hedley wrote:You are reading something into the CARs that is simply not there.
It is there.

Read CAR 425.21
(9) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, have an instrument rating and:

(a) have a flight instructor rating; or

(b) have experience of not less than 500 hours pilot-in-command flight time, of which:

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group, and

(ii) in the case of Group I aircraft, not less than 10 hours shall be on the type of multi-engine aeroplane used for the training
You can do it, you just can't do it towards the instrument rating. But then again why would you want to? The instrument time for the other licenses and ratings is specifically under the dual requirements.

If you're up there training yourself its still training, and you need to meet Part 4 requirements to conduct training.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:51 am

its still training
No, it isn't, and that's your problem. You can't tell the difference between EXPERIENCE and TRAINING.

CAR 421.46 specifies EXPERIENCE and you are super-imposing TRAINING on it. Don't do that.
you just can't do it towards the instrument rating
CAR 421.46 doesn't agree with you. Transport doesn't agree with you, either.

Please stop making your own regulations and requirements, and representing them as the CARs.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:56 pm

Training by definition is the act of learning something new. If you are up there teaching yourself something new, you are training. If your are teaching yourself something for the purpose of obtaining an instrument rating, you are training towards an instrument rating.

Until you have the rating, it can be argued that you are training for the purposes of obtaining experience for the instrument rating. I think its pretty clear, and I choose to cover my butt in that manner and recommend others to do so.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:03 pm

Please feel free to do whatever makes you happy. If you think wearing a purple hat keeps the elephants away, who am I to argue with your logic?

However, please do not attempt to propogate your erroneous interpretation of the CARs. Please contact Transport to clarify the difference between experience and training as it applies to CAR 421.46.

I might suggest to everyone that they need an ATPL to solo a C150, but this is clearly not true and is a ridiculous mis-interpretation of the CARs. It would be silly of me to try to propogate such nonsense.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:38 pm

Hedley wrote:Please feel free to do whatever makes you feel safe and secure.

However, please do not attempt to propogate your erroneous interpretation of the CARs. Please contact Transport to clarify this if you disagree.

I might suggest to everyone that they need at ATPL to solo a C150, but this is clearly not true and is a ridiculous mis-interpretation of the CARs.
I don't believe I am in error. You and I both know that you can't always take a word from Transport as gold. What really matters is what the court will decide if something goes awry and who will be held accountable. The CARs are open to interpretation.

I've agreed with you about the experience verses training issue. It allows you to take credit of the instrument experience gained from your private and commercial pilot training which are not necessarily instrument rating specific.

With your interpretation one can complete the IFR rating without any IFR specific training by calling it "experience" rather than training. No matter how I look at it its still training. In my view "experience" by legal definition is gained two ways; by training or by exercising the privileges of your license, permit or rating.

Now in your case if it was an official ruling appealed through the Tribunal and won, I'd be more likely to agree with you.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:03 pm

ummmm ... that's how I got my initial group 3 instrument rating, all those years ago - logging PIC under the hood, with a safety pilot in the right seat whom was NOT qualified to teach IFR.

At first, the DOT inspector doing my initial ride didn't want to count those hours towards my 40 instrument, and he maintained that I didn't have the experience for the instrument rating. I respectfully requested he look it up, and after talking to his boss's boss, the Inspector agreed with me that I was right and he was wrong, and that experience surely did count.

Not sure what else you want from me. CARs are very clear, and so is my experience on this very subject with Transport.

You want to people to do something different than the CARs, and that's fine with me. But it's simply not required - my initial instrument rating is the proof of that.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by KK7 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:27 pm

Sorry, but Hedley is absolutely right. Nowhere in the CARs does it say you need 40 hours of training to get an instrument rating. You need 20 hours of training, and a total of 40 hours of instrument time. Yes, to train someone, you need to meet the qualifications. But to get an instrument rating you only need 20 hours of instrument training. The other 20 hours of instrument are often obtained through training and is probably wise to do it this way, but nowhere does it say that this needs to be training.

As an aside, of those 20 hours of instrument training required, 5 is from your PPL, because a minimum of 5 must be obtained by someone who holds a flight instructor rating. The rest of the 15 is just by a person qualified by the reg mentioned in a previous post.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:34 pm

Hedley wrote:ummmm ... that's how I got my initial group 3 instrument rating, all those years ago - logging PIC under the hood, with a safety pilot in the right seat whom was NOT qualified to teach IFR.

At first, the DOT inspector doing my initial ride didn't want to count those hours towards my 40 instrument, and he maintained that I didn't have the experience for the instrument rating. I respectfully requested he look it up, and after talking to his boss's boss, the Inspector agreed with me that I was right and he was wrong, and that experience surely did count.

Not sure what else you want from me. CARs are very clear, and so is my experience on this very subject with Transport.

You want to people to do something different than the CARs, and that's fine with me. But it's simply not required - my initial instrument rating is the proof of that.
I'm saying its open still for interpretation. Your experience is proof of varying opinions. In my experience I've seen things get passed by on license applications before, I've seen multiple interpretations on CARs from various inspectors, and I've seen things enforced incorrectly. It seems to vary from region too. My point is the jury is still open on it. It is still open for argument.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Tim » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:39 pm

as I mentioned, it's part of the MFC syllabus. every time i recommended someone for an IFR flight test i used this time towards the 40 hrs.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Hedley » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:49 am

It is still open for argument
No. To summarize:

-- FD says all instrument time for IFR must be dual from "qualified person".

On the other side, we have:
-- CAR 421.46 clearly states EXPERIENCE not TRAINING for 40 hrs instrument, and explicitly states ONLY 15 hrs instrument required from "qualified person",
-- Hedley,
-- Transport (Hedley's initial group 3 IFR),
-- KK7,
-- Tim (MFC).

Hmmmm.

Feel free to do or say whatever you want at your school. You're CFI, you're God there, you can make all your instructors and students wear pink tu-tu's if you want. You can tell your students that they need 100 hours instrument time for an initial instrument rating. Why would I care? But don't pretend that's what the CARs say.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by mcrit » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:31 am

Guys,
I think what you are looking for is in the AIM not the CARs.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 67.htm#3-7
3.7.4 Instrument Flying Practice

(a) When licensed pilots are engaged in instrument flying practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, only the designated pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command flight time.

(b) The pilot undertaking instrument practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with dual flight time.

(c) The safety pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with co-pilot flight time if the certificate of airworthiness requires a co-pilot on the type of aircraft being used.
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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:02 am

FlaplessDork wrote:
Hedley wrote:You are reading something into the CARs that is simply not there.
It is there.

Read CAR 425.21
(9) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, have an instrument rating and:

(a) have a flight instructor rating; or

(b) have experience of not less than 500 hours pilot-in-command flight time, of which:

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group, and

(ii) in the case of Group I aircraft, not less than 10 hours shall be on the type of multi-engine aeroplane used for the training
You can do it, you just can't do it towards the instrument rating. But then again why would you want to? The instrument time for the other licenses and ratings is specifically under the dual requirements.

If you're up there training yourself its still training, and you need to meet Part 4 requirements to conduct training.

my 02 cents

Since "skybaron" the original poster who started this thread asked about logging time for refresher training the issue of experience vs training for the issue of
initial IFR rating is irrelevant.

Assuming we are talking about light aircraft operations, the only thing that matters is that there can only be one pilot who logs PIC time. That can be either the guy doing the refresher training or the safety pilot, but not both. If the safety pilot is also an instructor he/she could log either nothing or PIC with the other person logging dual.

With respect to the 40 hours required for the initial rating, as Hedley points out the CAR should be read literally. If they do not say "training" then training should not be implied. However just because you can do something does not necessarily mean you should. The point of the exercise is to learn how to fly IFR and past the IFR flight test. You should IMO do this with a planned program of simulator and aircraft training. My personal experience is that most people need a cumulative total of 40 (or more) hours of training in order to become competent at flying IFR. I personally would discourage students practicing on their own with a safety pilot because they are likely to practice the wrong way of doing something rather than the right way. It seems to me if you are already incurring the expense of flying the aircraft you might as well also pay a bit more for the instructor and get more value from the flight. But if you are a skygod and learned everything you need to know to pass the ride in your 5 hours of PPL instrument training and 15 more hours of IFR training then I guess go fill your boots flying on your own with a safety pilot.

Ps RE the AIM: Unless the paragraph heading includes a CAR's reference , which this one does not then, it is "information" not "direction" and thus not binding on the pilot
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