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[Hedley]

Deleted by request of Moderator.

[Aviatard]

CYR is "restricted" airspace - you can't legally fly through it.

Unless you have permission from the controlling agency, then you can.

[KK7]

You're right, compared to the US, Canada has very little Class F CYR airspace. However in my own experience I have found the few that there are to often be found in congested airspace.

Taking your Ottawa example, people skirting under the controlled airspace do often go into that area you mentioned, around Dwyer Hill (JTF2 training area, at least it used to be), but the big trouble spot is along the Ottawa River, most notably those preferring to stay once again out of controlled airspace and stay low along the river. It's been a while, but if I recall, you have the two 1/4 NM radius circular areas that extend up to 1500' around the Peace Tower and the Prime Minister's residence, then further along you have the firing range in the west end that I can't recall the name of.

I spent a lot of time operating in that area some years ago and there were many people who busted through this airspace. I had the opportunity to meet many of these people and the culprits usually are not carrying a map or a CFS on board the aircraft. It was unbelievable just how many people fly into Ottawa's various airports, sometimes for the first time ever, without ever looking at the airport information in the CFS. It was mind boggling.

Now I'd be curious to know which region carries the most infractions, since I have my own opinion on that. I really hate to generalize because it's unfair to a lot of great pilots from the region, but I've always had the most problems with pilots from Quebec... But I would love to be proved wrong on my generalization.

[Hedley]

Deleted.

[Soupy]

Personally, I find that a bit frightening, that so many people do this, while what they are doing is basically demonstrating that they have done little if any flight planning. I used to fly out of the Ottawa area, and the restricted airspaces are not that hard to notice. In all honesty they are all quite small (except for the one for the Gliders at Kars) and can easily be avoid.

I think that people flying through restricted airspace is a sign of their attitude, and makes me worry about their overall flight safety.

I hope things are going well in YSH Hedley.

[Posthumane]

The Suffield training area and experimental proving ground has always had restricted airspace, surface to unlimited, which means anyone flying north-west from Medicine Hat has to skirt around it. Just over a year ago they implemented an additional CYR area around the Suffield runway for UAV use - a 5 mile circle that extends to 6000. NavCanada certainly didn't go out of their way to make this known, and the local FSS guys didn't warn people when they were flying into it since it was out of their scope, so many people ended up accidentally flying through it on their way to Calgary or Edmonton. Previously, staying south of Hwy 1 kept you well clear, but the new airspace extended about a mile past the highway.

[Shiny Side Up]

NavCanada certainly didn't go out of their way to make this known,

While NavCan didn't do much, there was some CF public relations guys that were pretty busy going around when they did that to spread awareness about it. I got some posters to put up about it, most of which went missing since they depicted a Roland missile being launched at a happless Cessna.

[Posthumane]

I've seen the missile vs. cessna posters around, but they were for CYR 229 and 230. Maybe they put out another one for 231, but either way the posters didn't really outline the location of the CYR, they basically just told you to stay out of it. The whole point of that airspace was to be able to land the Heron without having to worry about traffic, although they didn't have any issues before they had it in place. The Heron flew outside of the CYR occasionally anyway. In fact, it crashed outside the CYR and is no longer flying for the time being.

While the area around the airfield is relatively safe, the EPG and MTA covered by CYR 230 and 229 do have some real hazards. There is occasional TOW missile training, rocket range and accuracy testing, and countless large blast trials. I've flown over the area, but with permission and when nothing much was going on. I do recall a very pissed off field trials officer a few years back when a couple of fighter jets flew 500ft over his trial site just half a minute before detonation though.

Btw, there is a new piece of restricted airspace by NOTAM extending out of the NE corner of the Suffield block, if you have any of your students flying this way, Shiny. I made a quick google earth overlay of it if you want.

[Hedley]

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[Hedley]

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[kevenv]

Are these areas depicted in the cockpit for carriers like Westjet/Jazz etc? The reason I ask is they often ask for direct somewhere that either takes them through the CYR or puts them above it and then they complain about being hung up. When I tell them the reason I can't give them direct or descent they seem surprised. This is not a rare occurrence either. It happens quite often.

[old_man]

^

Actually, I have a question along those lines that you may be able to answer. Will you clear me (IFR) through Class F airspace if I tell you that I have the user's/controlling agency's/owner's permission?

Let's say it was IMC and I wanted some block airspace in the local practice area that wasn't being used at all due to the weather.

Or IFR through a CYR.

[kevenv]

Actually, I have a question along those lines that you may be able to answer. Will you clear me (IFR) through Class F airspace if I tell you that I have the user's/controlling agency's/owner's permission?

This happens quite often in 3 scenarios around here.

1. Photo Surveys in and around CYR724. We generally have paperwork stating they have permission or barring that we ask the a/c.

2. Military a/c that fly in to work within CYR724 before returning from whence they came. Again a simple confirmation that they are authorized to enter suffices.

3. Military a/c transiting active CYD's south of CYHZ. This comes up when military a/c in or out of CYZX from the south will penetrate active CYD's. We ask them if they are either part of the airspace (exercise) or if they have permission to enter.

Bottom line, if you tell me, on a recorded frequency, that you are authorized by the controlling agency to penetrate the airspace, away you go.

As for the block of altitudes in an unused training/practice area: If you file IFR and would like a block of altitudes, between radials and DME's of a VOR, I will accommodate you. I don't care about the VFR training areas. If you look at Moncton, the airport is almost completely encircled by training areas making it impossible to miss them. I have no idea whether they are in use or not. I will of course pass traffic as required.

[niss]

TFR violations - six months licence suspension and $5000 is now mandatory punishment.

Can they enforce that on foreign pilots?

[Hedley]

Deleted.

[RenegadeAV8R]

Are these areas depicted in the cockpit for carriers like Westjet/Jazz etc?

If I remember correctly, these areas are not depicted on the 737NG and CRJ navigation displays; the pilots only see waypoints, navaids and airports.

[Beefitarian]

Are these areas depicted in the cockpit for carriers like Westjet/Jazz etc?

If I remember correctly, these areas are not depicted on the 737NG and CRJ navigation displays; the pilots only see waypoints, navaids and airports.

Isn't there some whacky rule about carrying a WAC or VNC or the like that would most definately show all restricted airspace?

Free advice: update the database in your VFR GPS once a year, so that it picks up these new class F airspace areas, and displays them on your moving map! Also, you will pick up frequency changes, terrain updates for new towers, etc.

I'd be instantly perma-ip-mega-banned if I posted my opinion on someone that is flying real airplanes and doesn't think that's a good idea.