A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#26 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:06 pm

Take the money you are thinking of wasting on an A320 rating and buy apple stock, that way you will be far, far better off.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#27 Post by Lurch » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:20 pm

I don't get the big deal.

Thier wanting to put money into a Canadian company and then leave the country. I say more power to them, the sooner they leave the country the better.

I say good riddance, don't forget to surrender your Canadian passport, and don't let the door hit you on the way out. :twisted:

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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#28 Post by Bede » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:27 pm

I know a guy who was told exactly what you're saying by Tiger Airways in China. He spent $30k and got - surprise - no job. Then he spent $20k or $30k on a Falcon training bond so he could work for some clowns in Iqaluit. Then he spent some more money chasing a job somewhere else. A few of us figured he had blown $75k on BS type ratings trying to get ahead.

Like another poster said, every shady operator will tell you to get a type rating- decent employers will not want a type rating because they will spend the money to train you to fly their airplanes THEIR way. If these companies are so interested in you how about they send you a written job offer, conditional that you get a type rating. At least then you can see this foolish idea as an investment and not a gamble.

PS If you end up going this route, post on here in a year and tell us how you made out.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#29 Post by straightpilot » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:31 pm

every shady operator will tell you to get a type rating
Southwest Airlines requires all of their new-hires to get a 737 type rating on their own before they start work.

Is Southwest a shady operator?

http://www.southwest.com/html/about-sou ... ilots.html
A Candidate may apply without a B-737 Type Rating. If a candidate interviews and successfully completes the entire selection process, he/she has six months from the date to obtain a B-737 Type Rating to be eligible for hire.
btw before you buy any Apple stock, check out:

http://ycharts.com/companies/AAPL/pe_ratio
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#30 Post by delay256 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:04 pm

Haters
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#31 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:11 pm

What is a hater, and what does it have to do with us trying to give advice?
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#32 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:44 am

What is a hater, and what does it have to do with us trying to give advice?
Well it might have had something to do with this line:
I say good riddance, don't forget to surrender your Canadian passport, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Or perhaps it was the cartoons about trolls. Or the fact that while the question was from someone who was looking for a parter, a whole load of people derailed this thread into bashing the o/p for his career decisions. Way to go, chaps. So much for the famed Canadian hospitality.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#33 Post by Shiny Side Up » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:40 am

delay256 wrote: @iflyforpie Im pretty sure you would do the same if you were in my shoes. I made near nothing as a flight instructor and dont see any positive outlook on the job front here in Canada which has led me to try back home.
From another thread:
I made $9000 last year.
A little bit OT but why did you get paid so little? To me it sounds like you were working for a bad operator already, assuming you flew with them until you were up to your current total. Pains me to see this sort of stuff going on. Not sure why you feel that you need to go elsewhere, since you've stuck it out through the hardest part of your career. With 1000+ hours in the book, you're in much more hirable territory, you can definitely find someone to work for who doesn't require you to bring your own type rating.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#34 Post by iflyforpie » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:22 am

delay256 wrote:@iflyforpie

How did I get the money to pay for it? - That is none of your concern.
It might not be any of my concern, but it sure does puzzle me when somebody who makes 'no money' has all of this disposable cash to blow on a rating that is above your experience and doesn't guarantee a bright future. Unless of course it is somebody else's money.
I have nearly 1200 hours and I have applied to over a 100 job postings but NO PHONECALLS, NO INTERVIEWS, NOTHING!

So forgive me if I take a chance with my career.
Two things. First of all, whoever said that getting your license was guaranteed to get you a job was putting the rose coloured glasses on. The jobs simply aren't there unless you have an in or are exceptional in some way. I took my training with job in hand--I wouldn't have done it any other way.

The second thing is, those of you who are unlucky with your job searches make life miserable for the rest of us when you buy jobs, work for crap wages, and work for shady operators. I didn't fly for two years after my first job because jobs simply weren't there unless I wanted to lower my standards.


But I am just a hater.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#35 Post by Sulako » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:20 am

straightpilot wrote:
every shady operator will tell you to get a type rating
Southwest Airlines requires all of their new-hires to get a 737 type rating on their own before they start work.

Is Southwest a shady operator?
If they make their pilots pay for their own training, then yeah, they are a shady operator and they should be ashamed their actions.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#36 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:39 pm

Sulako wrote:
straightpilot wrote:
every shady operator will tell you to get a type rating
Southwest Airlines requires all of their new-hires to get a 737 type rating on their own before they start work.

Is Southwest a shady operator?
If they make their pilots pay for their own training, then yeah, they are a shady operator and they should be ashamed their actions.

Are they not one of the most profitable airlines in the world?? "Ashamed" is being polite Sulako!
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#37 Post by delay256 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:59 pm

@iflyforpie - disposable cash to blow on a rating that is above your experience and doesn't guarantee a bright future. Unless of course it is somebody else's money.

My cousin who had his own rating got hired at age 20 on an A320 with 300 hours, hes 23 and a Captain now with IndiGo. (Worked out pretty well for him). Im hoping to do the same.

Again my finances are none of your business
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#38 Post by Sulako » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:30 pm

The reason people are giving you a hard time is that buying your way into a job is unethical - it allows operators to take advantage of pilots by demanding the same thing of others, and it screws your fellow aviators who are unable to buy their way into a seat. Operators will then choose to employ the pilots who can pay the most rather than the pilots who are best skilled/suited for the job, and that can't be good for safety.

You can't buy experience, and you are putting yourself in the potential position of operating a high-performance machine without a strong background in aviation. You also can't buy respect, which will be much harder to come by should you happen to return to Canada and look for a job.

I know I wouldn't want a 300-hour pilot flying my family around in an Airbus, mostly because they haven't had the time to experience all the crazy stuff you see in aviation with a few thousand hours under your belt. Experience, which is generally the basis for good decision-making in the future.

I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just pointing out that pilots who buy their own ratings are basically eating their young, and it's really too bad.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#39 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:37 pm

^ what he said! :smt023
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#40 Post by delay256 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:12 pm

@Sulako

How am I suppose to get the experience when no one is going to hire me?

Everybody needs a first break, Iv'e just not had any luck for the last two years and a bit.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#41 Post by Cap'n Tripps » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:56 pm

delay256 wrote:@Sulako

How am I suppose to get the experience when no one is going to hire me?

Everybody needs a first break, Iv'e just not had any luck for the last two years and a bit.

Believe me, a lot of people, including myself, have had to wait for a heck of a lot longer than a measly 2 years for a job. Any job, let alone a "real" job.

Either you're not trying hard enough, or you're not trying hard enough in the right places.

How's your french?

Cheers and good luck, wherever you end up.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#42 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:33 pm

delay256 wrote:@Sulako

How am I suppose to get the experience when no one is going to hire me?

Everybody needs a first break, Iv'e just not had any luck for the last two years and a bit.
I offered you assistance with your resume and cover letter yesterday and still haven't seen anything from you. If I was desperate...and I have been (was out of work for a full year), I did everything under the sun to change my fate. You need to create your own breaks, they will never just fall into your lap!
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#43 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:01 pm

I know I wouldn't want a 300-hour pilot flying my family around in an Airbus
Don't let them fly a European airline then!

I think we're misconstruing what a type rating is. It's not a measure of respect that you deserve, or a token of your value to your employer. It's just a type rating, that says you've demonstrated the procedures safely to fly a particular kind of aircraft, as determined by the manufacturer.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#44 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:16 pm

My cousin who had his own rating got hired at age 20 on an A320 with 300 hours, hes 23 and a Captain now with IndiGo. (Worked out pretty well for him). Im hoping to do the same.

Again my finances are none of your business


I probably should just let this fade into oblivion.

However I still have this hope aviation will improve as time passes and the attitude I see displayed here is not the attitude that I approve of and having hired hundreds of pilots over my career I am really uncomfortable with the attitude of this poster.

When pilots get hired based on their belief they are entitled to advancement because they will pay money to get there we are at the point where automation should replace pilots and let the computers do the job.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#45 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:25 pm

I take it, Chuck, that you'd disapprove of the EasyJet and Ryanair cadet schemes? Where, at perhaps 200 hrs you effectively pay for the rest of your training directly to the airline while sitting right-seat in one of their airliners with paying passengers at the back? It's generally joked that on any Ryanair flight, the person who paid most for the flight is sitting directly on the captain's right.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#46 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:40 pm

I take it, Chuck, that you'd disapprove of the EasyJet and Ryanair cadet schemes? Where, at perhaps 200 hrs you effectively pay for the rest of your training directly to the airline while sitting right-seat in one of their airliners with paying passengers at the back? It's generally joked that on any Ryanair flight, the person who paid most for the flight is sitting directly on the captain's right.
I actually have mixed emotions regarding this progress from zero to the right hand seat situation.

I flew with one of the pilots who did sim training for Ryan Air and we both agreed that it seems that is the way the aviation world is headed, from my observation the quality of training in Europe was superior to what one generally finds in Canada....

....but in the final analysis my opinion really will not change the way the industry is going.

I'm obviously old school and think nothing really trumps experience.

Let me reverse this question thing back to you Photofly and ask you a question, if you owned a very expensive airplane and needed a pilot to fly it would you want an experienced pilot or would you hire a low timer who bought a rating?
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#47 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:58 pm

if you owned a very expensive airplane and needed a pilot to fly it would you want an experienced pilot or would you hire a low timer who bought a rating?
I don't think that's an entirely meaningful question. Let's say I own an airline, with a fleet of aircraft. And I have shareholders. That means I need a responsible recruitment strategy to have pilots with a range of seniorities and experiences, so they don't all end up retiring at the same time. So I need some very experienced pilots, and some low-timers too.

If you're asking would I discriminate against someone who'd paid for their own type-rating? No. That's what I mean about not mistaking a type rating for an ego massage. Someone who comes to me for a job but requires me to pay $35k for their training would simply command a lower salary than someone who has already spent that $35k on themselves. That's really what the European cadet schemes are about, and it makes perfect sense, economically.
I'm obviously old school and think nothing really trumps experience.
I understand the argument that is made is that 1000 hours teaching noobs from the right seat of a 172 is of very little use in flying, say, a 737NG. It's actually better then to get that 1000 hours in the right seat of the 737 in the first place. It's certainly advantageous from the trainee pilots point of view.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#48 Post by straightpilot » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:59 pm

It doesn't matter what we think - it's the kid's money, not anyone else's. If he wants to spend it gold-plating his Sunfire, you can't interfere and stop him from doing that, either. It doesn't matter if you think it's stupid or unfair, it's his money, not yours. Since it's his money, he can spend it the way he wants to. You get to spend your money the way you want to.

Some people don't have the $60,000 it takes to get a PPL/night/CPL/MIFR. Is that unfair? Are you going to stop the people with $60,000 from spending it on PPL/night/CPL/MIFR, too?

What gives anyone here the right to interfere and tell other people how they can live their lives, and spend their money?
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#49 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:45 pm

I personally do not care if someone spends their money on anything they want to, I only gave my own opinion.

Now back to the Airbus A320 with a fresh type rated low time pilot in the right hand seat.

The captain is in the lavatory and there is a problem like Air France had last year over the South Atlantic.

Do you want to be sitting in the back as a passenger?
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#50 Post by ybwflyguy » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:18 pm

I understand the argument that is made is that 1000 hours teaching noobs from the right seat of a 172 is of very little use in flying, say, a 737NG. It's actually better then to get that 1000 hours in the right seat of the 737 in the first place. It's certainly advantageous from the trainee pilots point of view.

In some ways I agree, but how many people will go right seat in an airliner here in Canada with 1000hrs in a 172. That instructor is likely to next fly a Navajo, followed by a captain position. Then perhaps to a King Air. Whatever their path, they're likely to have a good few thousand hours spent in complex machines flying IMC, icing, thunderstorms, system malfunctions etc. etc. possibly with a great deal of PIC time in these situations. All this experience our two big airlines look at as prerequisite for flying a plane with a couple hundred passengers behind you. Unfortunately, with the lack of GA in Europe the airlines can't be this picky with their FOs. Seems as if all the emphasis is on theory (crazy amount of studying/exams) and money (i.e. enough to actually be in a position to apply to an airline).
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