A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

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cdnpilot77
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#51 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:22 pm

Chuck Ellsworth wrote:I personally do not care if someone spends their money on anything they want to, I only gave my own opinion.

Now back to the Airbus A320 with a fresh type rated low time pilot in the right hand seat.

The captain is in the lavatory and there is a problem like Air France had last year over the South Atlantic.

Do you want to be sitting in the back as a passenger?

Wasn't there an incident a year or so ago where a lowtime right seat bus driver at the controls with captain in the lav freaked out when he accidently disabled the A/P and nearly stalled the airplane only to be saved by the capt returning to the flightdeck or maybe saved by a checkpilot on the flightdeck something like that? It happens, I am sure of it...I will try and find it.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#52 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:26 pm

The captain is in the lavatory and there is a problem like Air France had last year over the South Atlantic.

Do you want to be sitting in the back as a passenger?
And yet the captain made it back to the cockpit, and neither he nor the other two pilots - all experienced - made the decisions to save the plane. Experience didn't help.
All this experience our two big airlines look at as prerequisite for flying a plane with a couple hundred passengers behind you. Unfortunately, with the lack of GA in Europe the airlines can't be this picky with their FOs.
The safety record of European airlines isn't noticeably better or worse than those in North America, which is prima facie evidence that all those thousands of hours flying Navajos and Q400's over here don't make the difference that you suppose.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#53 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:42 pm

O.K. Photo fly just this once will you answer a simple question just for me?

If you owned a very expensive airplane and you were using it in a commercial operation you would hire a 200 hour Pilot because in your opinion experience does not mean anything as far as skills go.

By the way I am well aware you are trolling, but a lot of inexperienced people here just may take you seriously.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#54 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:41 pm

Chuck Ellsworth wrote:O.K. Photo fly just this once will you answer a simple question just for me?

If you owned a very expensive airplane and you were using it in a commercial operation you would hire a 200 hour Pilot because in your opinion experience does not mean anything as far as skills go.

By the way I am well aware you are trolling, but a lot of inexperienced people here just may take you seriously.
It's not my opinion that experience doesn't mean anything, as far as skills go. I simply make that the point that 200 (or whatever) hours of the right experience along with a "frozen ATPL" is considered by the European safety authorities to be sufficient to sit right seat on a passenger-carrying 737. Appeals about how the benefits of 5 or more years flying a King Air or Navajo in the frozen wastelands of Arctic Canada must generate some quantity of the "right stuff" which can only be of benefit to the passengers in the back sound great, but those benefits don't show up in the accident records of the airlines that employ those pilots.

You keep asking about "if I owned an expensive airplane" - but airlines don't own just one expensive airplane, they have a fleet, and a whole population of pilots to manage. So what one would or wouldn't do with one airplane is a different question with a different answer to what one would or wouldn't do with a fleet.

When I was a child and British Airways ran their own flight training unit which trained all their pilots from scratch (at Hamble: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamble_Col ... r_Training) the trainees they didn't get sent out to be instructors in a 172 from 200-1000 hours before working for a Tier 4/3/2 airline to "gain experience" and then going on to a Tier 1 carrier - they went straight to work right-seat for BOAC or BEA, or later BA - flag carriers all. Putting pilots in front of passengers at a major carrier at 200 hours is not a new feature of the airline industry.

As regards trolling: I don't know what your definition is. I write only what I believe. If anyone wants to take it seriously or otherwise it should be only because they've considered the merits of the argument.
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#55 Post by Beefitarian » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:48 pm

In most cases flying many hours in the frozen north will be somewhat difficult manual or hands on flying. Of course that should be valuable experience. No?
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#56 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:04 pm

As regards trolling: I don't know what your definition is. I write only what I believe. If anyone wants to take it seriously or otherwise it should be only because they've considered the merits of the argument.
Exactly, each reader here will digest what they read and form their own opinions.

Just between me and you we have different opinions which is exactly what human nature is about.

I read what you type, but I have the feeling you either have not really researched my background when you start this nonsense about how they do it in Europe or you are just jerking my chain.

Either way it will not really change much because I'm betting more people will listen to my opinion than yours if for no other reason than I share my real background and it is easy to validate it.

Part of my background was working directly with the regulators in Europe therefore it stands to reason I understand their system.
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#57 Post by Beefitarian » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:10 pm

Slow down here. It looks like you're about to break out "Nyan cat" soon.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#58 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:17 pm

Nah, I'm actually quite laid back Beef when it comes to these back and forth exchanges with posters on here who could be anyone from a ten year old to the most experienced pilot in the whole Fu in world.

Actually I get a bit of enjoyment out of it Beef as it helps me pass time. :mrgreen:
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#59 Post by Beefitarian » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:24 pm

Ok that's cool. You seemed to have skimmed his post and missed what seems to be a fair point though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you have 4000 pilots it may be a better place to put 50 low time ones in to gain experience. Versus you only have 6 pilots and they never fly together because your planes are single pilot like a caravan. In the big operation there may be some mentoring going on.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#60 Post by delay256 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:25 pm

Captains make mistakes too, we all do and that is a fact of life. Going and blaming low time FO's for everything that goes wrong is ridiculous.

I have chosen to go down this route at this point. I have time on the Navajo in IMC and Icing conditions but the experience I got there has little to do with the FMS, ECAM and overall jet transition skills I am learning now. If I stick on to the route in Canada and eventually get on a jet here someday, it would still be a whole new world so I figure I might as well start the process now.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#61 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:35 pm

Oh, I am well aware of what he is pointing out with regard to the big airlines and their training and hiring practices and properly monitored it is quite successful.

We do however seem to have different opinions on the value of pilot experience in the rest of aviation.

When I was in the position of hiring pilots I looked very carefully at their experience level and used various methods of determining their background, it may surprise you to know I never looked at their log books as proof of their flying experience.
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#62 Post by Beefitarian » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:45 pm

Obviously I don't have your experience so I'm partly speculating here but I think you're saying hours alone don't make for experience? Sometimes it's what happened in those hours and who they are?

I know a couple of times when I was doing CPL training, I went up with an instructor that must have had more hours and experience than me but was left annoyed that I paid $60 to give the guy an airplane ride.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#63 Post by 767 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:24 pm

ybwflyguy wrote:
In some ways I agree, but how many people will go right seat in an airliner here in Canada with 1000hrs in a 172. That instructor is likely to next fly a Navajo, followed by a captain position. Then perhaps to a King Air. Whatever their path, they're likely to have a good few thousand hours spent in complex machines flying IMC, icing, thunderstorms, system malfunctions etc. etc. possibly with a great deal of PIC time in these situations.

You forgot about the "RAMP". Some companies (in Canada, im not sure about other places) like to see how the pilot loads bags into an airplane, and if it goes well, then most likely the pilot will be hired. Overseas is definitely a better option than the "RAMP".

And the post earlier about returning to Canada and not being able to get in..... UNBELIEVABLE... :evil:
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#64 Post by DAVE THE RAVE » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:32 am

Paying for your type rating up front. Isn't that what is happening at Air Canada anyway? $37.3K 1st year and $42.4K year 2. I think people going ahead and accepting these wages are doing the Canadian aviation industry a disservice as much as guy/gals paying for their type rating up front.

If you want to disparage the guy for paying for his own type rating, let's start a thread on the Air Canada page for pilots who are willing to prostitute themselves to Air Canada.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#65 Post by photofly » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:42 am

I read what you type, but I have the feeling you either have not really researched my background when you start this nonsense about how they do it in Europe or you are just jerking my chain.
Perhaps it would be more constructive for you to explain what's nonsense?

I'm not really sure what we disagree on. I'm sure that the "self-improver" route creates fine pilots - North American airline aircraft are operated by them. But it's not the only way to run a safe airline, I know we agree on that too.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#66 Post by photofly » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:54 am

In most cases flying many hours in the frozen north will be somewhat difficult manual or hands on flying. Of course that should be valuable experience. No?
Yes. But valuable for what, exactly? And how applicable is it to flying a 737? It's not a question I can anwer myself, but it's certainly one that ICAO, the various regulators, and the airlines are asking. For instance, have a look at this article: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/jr/2007/6203_en.pdf (page 15) about the new multi crew pilot licence.

Here's how it's going to work in Canada:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... _GUIDE.PDF

Perhaps Chuck was involved in the consultation process - I don't know. But it does look like pilots with 200 (240, actually) hours could soon be sitting right seat at say Air Canada.
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#67 Post by Beefitarian » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:15 pm

photofly wrote:
In most cases flying many hours in the frozen north will be somewhat difficult manual or hands on flying. Of course that should be valuable experience. No?
Yes. But valuable for what, exactly?
Flying airplanes. I guess that sort of experience may not be usefull anymore for someone that is going to become a flight managament system operator. Maybe I'm living in the past when they would hire people to pilot even large aircraft I suppose.
photofly wrote: But it does look like pilots with 200 (240, actually) hours could soon be sitting right seat at say Air Canada.
Well now that the little guy has started kindergarten I'll need to find some before and afterschool supervision before I can do that. Do I still need to pass that pstar? Guess I'll have to study harder.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#68 Post by AEROBAT » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:41 pm

Here's how it's going to work in Canada:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... _GUIDE.PDF

Perhaps Chuck was involved in the consultation process - I don't know. But it does look like pilots with 200 (240, actually) hours could soon be sitting right seat at say Air Canada.[/quote]

Pretty bizzare if you ask me. I wonder what the reaction of the public will be when they start to impliment this? They probably won't even care I suppose.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#69 Post by Grantmac » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:56 pm

AEROBAT wrote: Pretty bizzare if you ask me. I wonder what the reaction of the public will be when they start to impliment this? They probably won't even care I suppose.
Depends on if the tickets get cheaper, knock off $10 and the public would probably be happy with someones drunk uncle Cletus flying.

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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#70 Post by Bede » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:01 am

To the OP,

Just for curiosity, you mentioned you had sent out over 100 resumes. What sort of jobs were you applying to?

Also when you're done, you can post on here how you made out. If you end up on an Airbus, well, you can show the "haters" and perhaps be in a position to give some advice. If this is the last we hear from you, I guess we'll know you blew your money on something most of us advised you against.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#71 Post by Expat » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:59 pm

ybwflyguy wrote:
I understand the argument that is made is that 1000 hours teaching noobs from the right seat of a 172 is of very little use in flying, say, a 737NG. It's actually better then to get that 1000 hours in the right seat of the 737 in the first place. It's certainly advantageous from the trainee pilots point of view.

In some ways I agree, but how many people will go right seat in an airliner here in Canada with 1000hrs in a 172. That instructor is likely to next fly a Navajo, followed by a captain position. Then perhaps to a King Air. Whatever their path, they're likely to have a good few thousand hours spent in complex machines flying IMC, icing, thunderstorms, system malfunctions etc. etc. possibly with a great deal of PIC time in these situations. All this experience our two big airlines look at as prerequisite for flying a plane with a couple hundred passengers behind you. Unfortunately, with the lack of GA in Europe the airlines can't be this picky with their FOs. Seems as if all the emphasis is on theory (crazy amount of studying/exams) and money (i.e. enough to actually be in a position to apply to an airline).

Good point. Airlines in Europe and Asia will not rely on GA pilots from North America to fill their crew seats. They are designing training systems suited for their reality. That will mean a minimum of hours of quality training, and upwards mobility. The military does it, and that proves it can be done.
In addition, people getting into aviation in Europe and Asia tend to have the means to pay for their training much faster than in Canada. The ones I met either got military training, or had no problem spending 80k for training and type ratings.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#72 Post by DaveC » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:18 pm

photofly wrote:
In most cases flying many hours in the frozen north will be somewhat difficult manual or hands on flying. Of course that should be valuable experience. No?
Yes. But valuable for what, exactly? And how applicable is it to flying a 737? It's not a question I can anwer myself, but it's certainly one that ICAO, the various regulators, and the airlines are asking. For instance, have a look at this article: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/jr/2007/6203_en.pdf (page 15) about the new multi crew pilot licence.

Here's how it's going to work in Canada:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... _GUIDE.PDF

Perhaps Chuck was involved in the consultation process - I don't know. But it does look like pilots with 200 (240, actually) hours could soon be sitting right seat at say Air Canada.
Anyone know more about this? This would directly affect a number of low-timers (including myself) that I know.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#73 Post by photofly » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:08 pm

While looking at MPL posts on this forum, I noticed this post by a frequent contributor (which is rather relevant to the wisdom or otherwise of paying for your own type rating):
viewtopic.php?p=705777#p705777
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#74 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:23 pm

The last young pilot I talked to in Holland was doing the 737-800 sim training and as I recall he would have spent around 120,000 Euro by the time he finished......I'm not exactly sure but I think he said he was going to work for Ryan Air.

Keep in mind Canada and Europe have very little in common as far as commercial flying goes...and the training over there is more demanding, including cost wise.

We also had a cabin attendant who paid for her training up to the ATPL with a jet type rating...she obviously had not got a job as a pilot up until that time, but she was hopeful. She also spent around 120,000 Euro.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

#75 Post by nookie201 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:14 am

Go for it!, The Sim training you'll receive will be not wasted experience.

-G
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