Radio usage plea

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767
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by 767 »

trey kule wrote:"A straight in downwind" eh... I must be getting senile because I dont recall hearing that term before...Straight in...I understand where you are coming from and to...downwind...I understand approximately where you are...but a straight in downwind?
Yeah. Straight in, or from the upwind side (coming MID). On the radio, you can say "downwind" or "straight in downwind", same thing.

Anyways, who wants some space weed?

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Post by Beefitarian »

767 I can't do this. My brain doesn't work with uncontrolled airport talk.

~throws headset~
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by iflyforpie »

I usually say 'long downwind' if I am joining it out of the circuit rather than 'straight in downwind' which uses more radio syllables.

Also 'straight in downwind' can be cut off so it sounds like 'GABC will join straight in... eeeEEEEEEEEwwwawaWAWAWAWAWAawaaagghhbbbllssCCCCHHH... ANY CONFLICTING PLEASE ADVISE CESSNA ONE SEVENTY TWO CHARLIE GOLF DELTA ECHO FOXTROT SUMSPOT TRAFFIC!!'

Am I straight in to a downwind leg? (What some people will think). Or am I straight in to final? (What most people will think).
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by FlyGy »

Sometimes in an uncontolled environment, switching to the role of ATC can be a solution to solving conflict. For example, lets say you want to join STRAIGHT IN downwind, and there is a potential conflict at the MID DOWNWIND. I would slow down of course to let the other guy in front of me, however, sometimes I (on downwind) want to tell the other guy to start his turn ASAP, so that I won't have to slow down too much. The sooner me and him are flying in the same direction, the better. Some people wait until they get to a certian point before they begin MID DOWNWIND, which is not a bad idea, however, if no "conflict" exists except for the guy coming straight in, then you better start turning "if requested" by me. When its a windy day, its a whole different story. 8)
This confuses me a bit, because it is my understanding that a pilot cannot join the MID DOWNWIND at an uncontrolled airport if you're talking about the 45° angle. If he's joining the downwind without crossing mid field, then he is supposed to give way to aircraft established on the crosswind, correct? My understanding is that the only two ways a pilot can join the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome is either crosswind at mid field or established on the downwind well before the runway upwind threshold and only then if there is not an aircraft crossing at midfield.

From http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... .htm#4-5-2

Image
(v) Aerodromes not within an MF area: Where no MF procedures are in effect, aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6).

(vi) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is available: Aircraft may join the circuit pattern straight-in or at 45° to the downwind leg or straight-in to the base or final legs (Figure 4.1). Pilots should be alert for other VFR traffic entering the circuit at these positions and for IFR straight-in or circling approaches.

(vii) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6).
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767
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by 767 »

FlyGy wrote:
This confuses me a bit, because it is my understanding that a pilot cannot join the MID DOWNWIND at an uncontrolled airport if you're talking about the 45° angle. If he's joining the downwind without crossing mid field, then he is supposed to give way to aircraft established on the crosswind, correct? My understanding is that the only two ways a pilot can join the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome is either crosswind at mid field or established on the downwind well before the runway upwind threshold and only then if there is not an aircraft crossing at midfield.
Ok maybe I didn't word it right. Ill give it another shot.

When I talk about MID DOWNWIND, it means that the aircraft is joining by crossing mid field (from the UPWIND side). With regard to STRAIGHT IN DOWNWIND, it means that the aircraft is entering circuit from where the downwind leg begins. Yes, it is true that the aircraft entering at the downwind has right of way over the aircraft coming from the upwind side (assuming that the aircraft on downwind is established in the circuit), but usually the guy coming from the upwind side doesnt remember or think about right of way, they just cut in front of you. So my conclusion here is that when you encounter someone like that, give that guy some kind of instruction or say something so that the conflict is eliminated. I hope that clears up the confusion, if not, then I request BPF to explain. 8)
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by FlyGy »

See, this is where I'm confused, everywhere else, the aircraft to the right has the right of way, except in this instance. My understanding is that the aircraft crossing the field has the right of way because the aircraft joining the downwind isn't supposed to do that if there is a potential for conflict with an aircraft crossing the field and joining from the upwind. Maybe that's why everyone is cutting you off in the circuit? They think they have the right of way because they're joining from upwind and they are expecting you to give way to them because of the potential conflict?

I await BPF's response. :)
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schmoo
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by schmoo »

I was a little confused as well, but at the risk of earning some well-deserved eye rolling, I will attempt a summary :

If two aircraft are both joining the circuit, the mid-downwind has the right of way over the "straight in" downwind. However, if an ac is already established in the circuit ( e.g.) doing touch and goes, etc. , then the ac joining the circuit mid-downwind does not have right of way.

However, as someone pointed out, it is highly possible that the guy joining mid-downwind does not know whether the ac that is already in the downwind is doing circuits or has just joined. So, in the absence of knowing, the mid-downwind ac just assumes he has the right of way.

Do I have it even remotely right ? :?
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by trey kule »

First of all Schmoo, my previous posts were tongue in cheek...

But since then 767 posted this.
give that guy some kind of instruction
And now I am being serious...You are not ATC.. You do not issue "instructions" to other pilots..get it?

If you are in conflict YOU...take action to avoid it...and transmit what you are doing after..You dont "instruct" other pilots.
And of course there are exceptions, but they would consist of things like "xxxxx. right turn now (not turn right now ).....conflict."...while you are turning to avoid a midair. BTW. Make the little mistake of turn right now vs. right turn now, and you may have caused a midair. As an aside, my personal experience with near mid airs (and I have had a couple), is that they happen so fast no radio calls will help.And, the closest two were both the result of the pilots not following instructions and turning the wrong way...and those were actual ATC instructions. Far better, as people have said,is to keep your eyes out of the cockpit, and your mouth under control.
Conflict in the downwind.?..then TURN...Go up or down...and then transmit. XXXX turning left to avoid conflict.....not telling abc ...turn now. Pushing the transmit button , as others have tried to point out, without much success it seems, is not your first immediate action.
This is the difference between common sense and playing ATC..

Keep in mind 767 that when you are issuing "instructions" to other pilots you are sooner or later going to come across a crusty old guy like me who has been without coffee, tobacco, and a toilet for several hours and will get a bit cranky if some pilot starts playing ATC....I have a wicked tongue and little patience when my bladder is full and my low caffeine light is on. ....that is why we have procedures, and standard calls.

Now as to flyguy and Shmoos questions.. Good questions. I will let those like BPP or CS answer your questions as they are more familiar with uncontrolled procedures.
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Last edited by trey kule on Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
767
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by 767 »

schmoo wrote:I was a little confused as well, but at the risk of earning some well-deserved eye rolling, I will attempt a summary :

If two aircraft are both joining the circuit, the mid-downwind has the right of way over the "straight in" downwind. However, if an ac is already established in the circuit ( e.g.) doing touch and goes, etc. , then the ac joining the circuit mid-downwind does not have right of way.

However, as someone pointed out, it is highly possible that the guy joining mid-downwind does not know whether the ac that is already in the downwind is doing circuits or has just joined. So, in the absence of knowing, the mid-downwind ac just assumes he has the right of way.

Do I have it even remotely right ? :?
If you are in the circuit and have just took off, and you turn crosswind (typically at 500' AGL), you have right of way vs the guy coming for the straight in. Keep in mind that when your flying circuits, you want to turn crosswind at the point where you will place yourself 45 deg to the runway once you reach the downwind turning point.

If you are not in the circuit (when you are on the dead side, or upwind side), then you have to give right of way to the aircraft that is already "established" in the circuit (downwind)

All these procedures are reccomended. Im not sure if they are compulsury. Correct me if Im wrong, but some people say that you can basically do whatever you want at an uncontrolled airport. I have not read that anywhere. Regardless, I still follow the reccommended procedures.
trey kule wrote:

Keep in mind 767 that when you are issuing "instructions" to other pilots you are sooner or later going to come across a crusty old guy like me who has been without coffee, tobacco, and a toilet for several hours and will get a bit cranky if some pilot starts playing ATC....I have a wicked tongue and little patience when my bladder is full and my low caffeine light is on. ....that is why we have procedures, and standard calls.
Easy there bud. I never stated that I play ATC all the time. And in no way I fly and become ATC in each flight I fly. My point was, I would "politley" ask the other guy if they can start turning/climbing/ or whatever the case may be. If I dont see the change, then I will take action, such as get out of the way. I am not encouraging everyone to become ATC while flying, but if it helps for 3 seconds whats the big deal? Take it easy.
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Last edited by 767 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Sigh.....the FTU "good idea" club runs amock.....again

You guys want my opinion.......well OK here it is

Follow the GODDAMN AIM

For any uncontrolled field with no MF or an MF with a FSS person not at the field the best way to join the circuit is cross the runway midfield at a 90 deg angle. As you approach the field take a really good look both ways in the circuit and at both ends of the runway for guys about to depart. When you are overhead call "overhead the field joining the Left/right downwind for runway XX". The second best is to join the downwind in such away that you are established on the downwind heading and the appropriate distance to one side of the runway before you are abeam the downwind end of the runway. At this point you call "joining the downwind for runway XX" The main reason you only get two choices is so if pilots actually follow the practices recommended in the AIM then there is only going to be two places where you would expect to see joining traffic. The other reason for this is because CAR 602.96 2 (b) says you have to ascertain that quote the aerodrome is suitable for the intended operation unquote. The best way to do this is to fly over it or at least by it so you can scope out the runway condition.

The radio calls should be as unambiguous as possible. If you say "joining downwind" then that means joining downwind like I described above. There is no need for any modifier. Similar a call of "overhead joining the left/right downwind for runway XX" is about as clear and concise as possible. FTU's should not be making up things and "straight in downwind" is not clear and will not be recognized by many pilots including myself as this is the first time I have heard it.

But the bottom line is simple: After almost being smoked on several occasions by pilots not following the published procedure I can only advise that you got to keep you eyes on a swivel and expect the unexpected.
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Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by trey kule »

Well, I think BPF put it about as clear as possible.. Glad to see I was not the only one who had not heard about the straight in downwind.

Now 767.....take it easy? Well I suppose considering this quote from you..
My point was, I would "politley" ask the other guy if they can start turning/climbing/ or whatever the case may be
But this is what you posted previously..
when you encounter someone like that, give that guy some kind of instruction
Big difference... between "politley asking", and "giving instructions", though you really have no business in asking someone to do something if they are following standard procedures..It is your job to follow procedures and avoid any conflict...not play ATC. I am well aware that at many small fields the king of the patch suddenly seizes power and takes it upon themselves to determine how others should fly...Used to be quite common, and apparently maybe still is.

Anyway.. BPF put it about as clear as possible for those who can get by their rationalizations.
As a last comment...Maybe you just did not word it right...the same way you maybe just will issue some instruction to another pilot incorrectly...give it some thought.
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by FlyGy »

So, given that I am a rusty minted pilot with very few actual hours on my own, and that most of my flying is around an uncontrolled aerodrome, I haven't really developed what I would consider to be my consistent radio calls. Rather than ask what I should be doing besides the legal requirement, maybe I'll tell you what I do and you can pick it apart if I'm doing something that would piss you guys off.
  • No less than 15 minutes out I'll switch over to the aerodrome frequency, pause a moment to listen for traffic, then say "Cessna 150 GABC is inbound from the South at xxxx feet for runway inspection at 1500 AAE*."

    Within a mile of the airport I'll state, "Cessna 150 GABC is 1 mile South, overflying the airport for runway inspection at 1500 AAE*."

    At this point I determine which runway I want to land on based on condition and windsock indication.

    Once this determination is made I'll know what side of the runway is inactive, make my way there and announce "GABC is decending to circuit height on the inactive side"

    Once at that height I'll begin my crosswind at mid field and announce such as I pass over.

    Announce Joining Downwind

    Announce Turning Final for full stop landing

    Announce clear of the runway.
* 1500ft AAE is the altitude I would overfly the aerodrome, but I would state it in ASL, so an aerodrome elevation of 2000ft would actually be stated as 3500ft.

Too much?
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Last edited by FlyGy on Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

For your average bugsmasher approaching an uncontrolled field with no FSS/CARs station

1) "Sumspot traffic Cessna 150 GABC is 2500, 10 to the south, landing in 6 minutes, Sumspot"

After I have flown over the airport and figured out what I want to do

2) "Sumspot traffic ABC is descending on the South side for the overhead join 09, Sumspot"

Approaching the midfield on my way to join the circuit

3) "Sumspot traffic ABC overhead for the left downwind 09, Sumspot"

4) "Sumspot traffic ABC downwind left 09, Sumspot"

5) "Sumspot traffic ABC final 09, Sumspot"

6)"Sumspot traffic ABC down and clear, Sumspot"

Note in this case I had to overfly the airport to get to the dead side. if I was approaching from the other side then I could go straight to the midfield crossing at circuit height so call No 2 would not be required.

We are now getting into a few areas of legitimate debate. Some may think that I am over talking and try to combine calls and the practice of repeating the airport name at the end of the call is also not supported by some pilots.

Bottom line, think before you push the transmit button, follow the, who you are, where you are, and what you are doing; order for all calls and keep you eyes peeled, the radio won't save you from a midair, only looking out the window will.
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

trey kule wrote:
Big difference... between "politley asking", and "giving instructions", though you really have no business in asking someone to do something if they are following standard procedures..It is your job to follow procedures and avoid any conflict...not play ATC. I am well aware that at many small fields the king of the patch suddenly seizes power and takes it upon themselves to determine how others should fly...Used to be quite common, and apparently maybe still is.
I think as a general rule you should never tell someone what to do. Plane to Plane conversations should be phrased as a suggestion and are usually to make things easier or to be polite. Eg "Aircraft holding ready to go ABC will slow it up on final up to give you time to takeoff". If somebody has really screwed up like after buddy has called in downwind on the wrong side, then something like this "Sumspot has a right circuit for runway 09 and I am abeam you on the right downwind for 09, suggest you cross over mid field to follow me"

I do however find it difficult not to be sarcastic when replying to the pilots who continue to use the moronic, time wasting, utterly useless, stupid phrase "Will any conflicting traffic please advise" :roll:
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Fewer words is always better words.

Let's say I'm approaching Sumspot, which
has runway 09/27 and the wind is out of
the west, obviously favouring rwy 27.

Suggested radio calls:

1) Cessna Alpha Bravo Charlie five north
(or south or east or west) inbound Sumspot

That's it. No altitude. No long-winded description
of how I am going to join the circuit. With left
traffic on rwy 27, if I am coming from the
west, obviously a straight-in. If I am coming
from the north, obviously overhead, etc.

2) Alpha Bravo Charlie downwind 27 sumspot

3) Alpha Bravo Charlie final 27 sumspot

4) Alpha Bravo Charlie clear 27

and that's it.

The above may seem abbreviated, but on a
sunny, busy weekend, that may be all you can
get onto the frequency which is used by several
different airports.

PS Remember that legally speaking, the CARs
are regulatory and the AIM is not. You do NOT
have to join the circuit at an uncontrolled airport
as described in the AIM. For example, if there is
paradrop or helicopter or right glider traffic, you
would be foolish to rigidly follow the AIM and risk
a mid-air collision.

All you have to do is obey CAR 602.96(3):
602.96 (3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall

(a) observe aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding a collision;

(b) conform to or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;

(c) make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

(d) where the aerodrome is an airport, comply with any airport operating restrictions specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement;

(e) where practicable, land and take off into the wind unless otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

(f) maintain a continuous listening watch on the appropriate frequency for aerodrome control communications or, if this is not possible and an air traffic control unit is in operation at the aerodrome, keep a watch for such instructions as may be issued by visual means by the air traffic control unit; and

(g) where the aerodrome is a controlled aerodrome, obtain from the appropriate air traffic control unit, either by radio communication or by visual signal, clearance to taxi, take off from or land at the aerodrome.
Note that there is no regulatory requirement for an
aircraft to join the downwind (or even the base) at
an uncontrolled airport. The AIM is not regulatory -
rather, a collection of suggested practices which as
PIC you are allowed to - even required to - deviate
from whenever required.

Flying instrument approach procedures, for example,
both VFR and IFR, I will frequently join straight-in final
at uncontrolled airports. Perfectly legal. We've been
doing it for decades.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

CS

While strictly speaking you are of course correct the AIM has no regulatory authority but it does turn the often impenetrable CARese into practical advice. The "joining the circuit" is IMO a very good example. Yes you could join straight in but how do you satisfy the requirements of 602.96 3 (a ) "observe aerodrome traffic for the purposes of avoiding a collision" when you just drive right in on final. Following the AIM circuit diagram IMO does in fact provide the best way to "observe aerodrome traffic "as well as meeting the requirements of CAR 602.96 2 (b) which requires you to satisfy yourself that the aerodrome is suitable.

Personally I think if everyone conformed to the AIM procedures flying at uncontrolled airports would be safer. The problem children invariably seem to be the ones who are not willing to take the 3 extra minutes required to fly a full circuit or are too lazy to check an up to date flight supp and don't follow the right procedures, or are on the wrong frequency

I also really like a time to the airport included in the initial call, especially when I am waiting to takeoff. If CS is in the Cornell then 5 miles means he is going to be on final in about 5 minutes, if he is in the L 39, going from 5 miles out to sawing off the power on short final commited to land is about 30 seconds :wink:
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Colonel Sanders »

I also really like a time to the airport included in the initial call
I try to encode that into the aircraft type in the first radio call. Think
Van Jacobson header compression.

Cessna == single engine Cessna. 1.5nm to 2nm per minute groundspeed
Twin Cessna: 3nm per minute
Albatros: 4 nm per minute

PS In the L39, if possible I like to approach the airport at 250 knots
and fly an initial and break, as per the flight manual. 60/2 gets me
down to 180 knots for the gear at mid-downwind. If required I can
join a straight-in downwind but that's kind of awkward - I generally
have to get the boards out and the throttle all the way back to try
to make the gear speed, straight and level. Ugh.
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by trey kule »

Is there another regulation that specifies the radio procedure and required calls to uncontrolled airports?

BPF...not to be to picky, but announcing "full stop" unless you have been doing touch and goes is an FTU add on, I think.
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

trey kule wrote:Is there another regulation that specifies the radio procedure and required calls to uncontrolled airports?

BPF...not to be to picky, but announcing "full stop" unless you have been doing touch and goes is an FTU add on, I think.
602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.


The bits in red are for you CS :wink:


Good point re the "full stop".........I guess that makes me guilty of using an FTUism (ie something that only applies to FTU operations and is not an industry standard way of doing it) :oops:

Post suitably edited
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Re: Radio usage plea

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Good point re the "full stop".........I guess that makes me guilty of using an FTUism (ie something that only applies to FTU operations and is not an industry standard way of doing it)
That I think we can forgive, while maybe it will raise the ire of a purist, it a) doesn't take a lot of extra airtime and b) does convey something semi useful. For example there are a lot of bug smashers out there doing circuits and not all of them are flight school airplanes.

Its when stuff gets into radio calls that:

a) conveys no useful information, (ie: "any conflicting please advise")

b) is easily possibly confused with other radiotelephony, (ie: use of the terms straight in when not referring to a staight on final approach)

c) is excessively long,

d) is excessively redundant (ie: repeating information like your call letters and type or the frequency you're transmitting on)

e) all of the above.

The number one thing another pilot wants to know from your radio call is WHERE YOU ARE AT so he knows if you are relevent to what he is doing and whether he needs to do anything about you. Secondary to that is what you are intending to do, but if that can't be described in a few short words, the rest of us probably don't need to know.
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