ATPL Application process tips

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ctmorawetz
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ATPL Application process tips

#1 Post by ctmorawetz » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:10 am

Today I submitted my application for the ATPL and while I was preparing my paperwork I tried to find information about the application process, but there is very little out there. So, I wanted to write this so anyone else that is going through the application process can use this information however they see fit.

Do you need to take all of your logbooks with you?
*EDIT* Yes, they do require all of your logbooks. The inspector I originally dealt with told me otherwise, but the approval of my application has been delayed since because they did not have ALL of my logbooks. Bring them all and leave them all there.

When do the SAMRA and SARON expire?
In the CARs, it states that you have two years to complete the requirements of the ATPL after writing the exams. I wanted to clarify this, because I was not sure whether they expired at the 1st day of the following month like medicals or on the exact date of the exam, 24 months later. He said that they expire 24 months after the exam date.

What if your application isn't fully processed before the exam dates expire?
As long as your application form is submitted to Transport Canada before the expiration of either exam, then you are fine. I did not ask if that changes, if your application is rejected so keep that in mind.

What should I bring with me when I go to submit my application?
- ALL of your logbooks *EDIT*: Transport has since informed me that they require all of my logbooks, not just the last 5 pages of your latest logbook. They just neglected to tell me that while I was there. *Facepalm*
- Your aviation booklet. This is pretty obvious why...
- Other government issued ID. They never asked for it but it was listed on the TC website.
- Application form. Again, pretty obvious why...
- $100 cash/credit/debit/cheque
- Last MIFR Renewal flight test or PPC report. They can sign it off on the spot if they have that. Otherwise you have to wait until they locate the flight test report.
- Record of SAMRA and SARON exams. Just to confirm they dates that you wrote them.

Co-pilot vs Dual on the application form
Your times are divided into three categories on the application form: PIC, Co-pilot and PICUS (PIC under supervision). Anything that you were not PIC for, is to be listed under the Co-pilot category, whether it's dual time or co-pilot time. This only applies for your Instrument time. Your total day/night time does not require you to put in dual time, as long as you are over 1500 hours total time.

Do you need to book an appointment?
No. It wouldn't hurt to call ahead to make sure an inspector is there, especially if you are in a rush, but it's not required.

Overall the process went very quickly and smoothly provided that you are prepared with your application form filled out. The inspector I had at Buttonville was very helpful and was happy to answer any questions I had. I was missing the flight test report from my MIFR Renewal, so I have to wait approximately a month to get the sticker, but otherwise he said my application was fine. I was able to prove that I did my ride (with the sign-off in my aviation booklet) and that it was in an airplane (by looking at the logbook entry), so he submitted my application. They will verify that once they locate my flight test report.

I hope this helps those that are applying in the future and if anyone has any questions, PM me.
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Last edited by ctmorawetz on Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

D_Thissen
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#2 Post by D_Thissen » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:16 pm

Thanks for the info buddy!
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#3 Post by North Shore » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:09 pm

What if your application isn't fully processed before the exam dates expire?
As long as your application form is submitted to Transport Canada before the expiration of either exam, then you are fine. I did not ask if that changes, if your application is rejected so keep that in mind.
If you are rejected (for missing some of the time, say) then too bad, so sad. You didn't meet the requirements before the exams expired - hie thee to the nearest AARDO, $$ in hand to re-write...
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#4 Post by burninggoats » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:01 pm

I haven't submitted for the ATPL yet, but the best advice I have for ANY application to Transport Canada, is to wait until you have a bit more than the absolute minimum time requirements. If you submit an application with 1501 hours and 25.2 night PIC 103 Night and 250.0 hours of PIC, they are probably going to scrutinize everything. If you have double every single requirement, they will likely not take a second glance.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#5 Post by Chaxterium » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:55 am

ctmorawetz wrote: When do the SAMRA and SARON expire?
In the CARs, it states that you have two years to complete the requirements of the ATPL after writing the exams. I wanted to clarify this, because I was not sure whether they expired at the 1st day of the following month like medicals or on the exact date of the exam, 24 months later. He said that they expire 24 months after the exam date.
Just to clarify. If you wrote the SARON and SAMRA in order to get a type rating (as opposed to just writing the IATRA) and you actually received that type rating, then the exams are locked in for life. The 24 month expiry no longer applies towards the ATPL application.

Cheers,
Chax
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#6 Post by Diadem » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:36 pm

ctmorawetz wrote:Co-pilot vs Dual on the application form
Your times are divided into three categories on the application form: PIC, Co-pilot and PICUS (PIC under supervision). Anything that you were not PIC for, is to be listed under the Co-pilot category, whether it's dual time or co-pilot time. This only applies for your Instrument time. Your total day/night time does not require you to put in dual time, as long as you are over 1500 hours total time.
The way this is phrased is confusing to me. Does this mean that only the instrument time is divided into PIC, co-pilot, and PICUS? Or is all the dual required to be included under co-pilot, and thus only counts for 50%? I've tried opening the application form to look at it directly, but I keep getting an error message.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#7 Post by Chaxterium » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:03 pm

No. Dual is counted 1 for 1. Remember though that not all dual time can be counted towards the ATPL. Only dual time acquired for the purpose of obtaining a higher licence can be used.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#8 Post by tons-o-fun » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:23 pm

Just brushing up the application and went to fill in the PDF ATPL Application. I get to the INRAT examination date and put in when i wrote it (June/23/2009...been current ever since) and I get a warning that this date must be within a 24 month period of this application (see file attached) I thought only the SAMRA and SARON had to be within 24 months and as long as you held a current IFR ticket you were fine but it specifically asks for the inrat exam date. Checked all the regs and didn't see anything about the inrat needing to be written within 24 months of the atpl application. Anyone experience the same thing? (Sorry for the ginormis picture)
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#9 Post by Chaxterium » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:59 am

You're right. There is no requirement to have written the INRAT within the previous 24 months. The form is just programmed to not allow any dates more than 24 months ago since that is normally the requirement for the ATPL exams.

Just leave that part blank, print out the form and hand write it in. That's what I did. It's the same with the SARON and SAMRA as well. I wrote my ATPL exams over 4 years ago but since I got a type rating shortly after writing them my exams were locked in for life but when I tried to put those dates in the ATPL Application form it wouldn't take them. So I just hand wrote it out. No big deal.

Cheers,
Chax
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#10 Post by Krimson » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:25 pm

Chaxterium wrote:Just to clarify. If you wrote the SARON and SAMRA in order to get a type rating (as opposed to just writing the IATRA) and you actually received that type rating, then the exams are locked in for life. The 24 month expiry no longer applies towards the ATPL application.

Cheers,
Chax
Do you have the CARs reference for this? I was going to re-write them this month but it would be nice to not have to go sit the exams again. Just can't find anything on the website.

If anyone knows where to find it, I'm also looking for the reference where completing a type rating within the previous 12 months satisfies the requirement of performing an IFR ride on an actual airplane for the purposes of the ATPL.

Thanks.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#11 Post by Chaxterium » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:12 pm

I certainly do! I keep it in my back pocket!
400.03(1) Subject to subsection (3), tests, skill letters and examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period immediately preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.
(amended 2003/06/01; previous version)

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(a) a student pilot permit; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(ii) for the issuance of the former senior commercial pilot licence, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the senior commercial pilot licence was issued; or (amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(iii) for the issuance of an airline transport pilot licence aeroplane, an airline transport pilot licence ó aeroplane integrated course was successfully completed during the 5-year period preceding the date of the application for the licence and a course completion certificate was issued. (amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

(3) The regulatory requirements examination referred to in subsection 566.03(5) of Standard 566 - Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Licensing and Training that is required for the issuance of an aircraft maintenance engineer (AME) licence shall be completed during the 12-month period immediately following the date on which the application for the licence is accepted by the Minister.
(amended 2003/06/01; no previous version)
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#12 Post by Chaxterium » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:18 pm

As for the type rating satisfying the requirement for an IFR ride within 12 months as long as it's an IFR ride IN AN AIRCRAFT you're ok. You shouldn't have any trouble with TC over this. They will most likely have a copy of the ride report and as long as it's an IFR ride you'll be fine. The only time it could be an issue is if you renew your PPCs in a sim. The reg specifically says the IFR renewal has to be completed in an aircraft so a sim is no good. It's rather annoying but it's black and white so there's no way around it. I've heard of some inspector's not paying close enough attention and not noticing but I wouldn't count on that.

Cheers,
Chax
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#13 Post by tdp19 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:48 pm

Hypothetical question, Lets say you use your ATPL exams for a type rating on a BE02 and you upgrade to a DH8 at your company 2 year's after writing them. Are they still valid? Reason I ask is because A TC inspector once told me that your IATRA is a one time deal, meaning you use the IATRA for a Lear, if you switch aircraft you have to rewrite it, is it the same as the ATPL exams?
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#14 Post by Chaxterium » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:24 pm

My understanding is that they'd still be valid in that case. You basically have two years to do something with the ATPL exams once you've written them. Whether that's actually getting the ATPL signed off or using them to get a type rating. Once you've gotten a type rating with them they're valid for life. This is how it was explained to me by both the Yonge St. office and the Hamilton office. So in summary, if you've written the exams and you've since gotten a type rating, the exams are locked in.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#15 Post by Krimson » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:29 pm

Chaxterium wrote:As for the type rating satisfying the requirement for an IFR ride within 12 months as long as it's an IFR ride IN AN AIRCRAFT you're ok. You shouldn't have any trouble with TC over this. They will most likely have a copy of the ride report and as long as it's an IFR ride you'll be fine. The only time it could be an issue is if you renew your PPCs in a sim. The reg specifically says the IFR renewal has to be completed in an aircraft so a sim is no good. It's rather annoying but it's black and white so there's no way around it. I've heard of some inspector's not paying close enough attention and not noticing but I wouldn't count on that.

Cheers,
Chax
I have always thought you would have to do a ride on the actual aircraft. I have been asking around since our company uses flight safety for renewals and I was curious how people have been getting their ATPLs. Everyone has said the PPC counts as long as it was within 12 months, and their license backs it up. I have searched everywhere in the CARs for the reg but cannot find it anywhere and only can come across this one where it clearly states in an aircraft.

Regarding the exams remaining valid, probably a stupid question, but "...if examinations were previously written FOR the endorsement of a type rating...". If wrote them a year an a half before getting a type rating, I didn't exactly write them for an endorsement, but for my college as they required them complete for graduation. Am I reading to much into this since the purpose of writing them is eventually for the endorsement of a type rating?
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#16 Post by Chaxterium » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:27 pm

Krimson wrote: I have always thought you would have to do a ride on the actual aircraft. I have been asking around since our company uses flight safety for renewals and I was curious how people have been getting their ATPLs. Everyone has said the PPC counts as long as it was within 12 months, and their license backs it up. I have searched everywhere in the CARs for the reg but cannot find it anywhere and only can come across this one where it clearly states in an aircraft.
From what I've heard some people have gotten away with using their last PPC in a sim for their ATPL application but as far as the regs are concerned that's not allowed. If the TC inspector doesn't notice that's great but the reg clearly states "multi-engined aeroplane".
DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and

(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
I'm sure most would agree that there is no reason why an IFR PPC renewal in a sim shouldn't count and hopefully most inspectors agree but as per the letter of the law they have every reason to request that it be performed in an aircraft. I know a few colleagues who had to do that.
Krimson wrote: Regarding the exams remaining valid, probably a stupid question, but "...if examinations were previously written FOR the endorsement of a type rating...". If wrote them a year an a half before getting a type rating, I didn't exactly write them for an endorsement, but for my college as they required them complete for graduation. Am I reading to much into this since the purpose of writing them is eventually for the endorsement of a type rating?
This I think would depend on the TC inspector as well. The inspectors I've spoken to just wanted to see a type rating added after the exams were completed. They didn't look into the length of time between the exams and the type rating.

The best advice is to speak to an inspector. The sad part is that if you don't like what they have to say just call another one and they'll probably tell you something completely different.

Cheers,
Chax
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#17 Post by yzfer » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:30 pm

Didn't see this mentioned, just appeared in the Gazette last week (Feb 23, 2013). Should come into for 60 days from then.
— repeal section 401.10 so as to allow the Minister to credit the holder of a pilot licence for 100% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence and harmonize Canadian requirements with the ICAO’s equivalent standards.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#18 Post by Chaxterium » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:38 pm

Excellent. I've been hearing for a while that this was being repealed.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#19 Post by cdnpilot77 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:10 pm

Unless I am mistaken, this was only published in the proposed amendments issue of the gazette for review and has yet to be published in "Part II" of the gazette which would then trigger the amendment after 60days from publication.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#20 Post by Krimson » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:53 am

After reading the article, it is correct that it has not yet been published in "Part II" of the gazette.

Does anyone know a rough estimate for how long it usually takes for an amendment to appear in Part II? Or does it greatly vary dependant on the content?

The amendments were proposed in September 2008, I am hoping it doesn't take another 5 years to implement. Great news though.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#21 Post by yzfer » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:00 am

Perhaps this needs a new topic started, but it was open to 30 days of consultation when it was published in the Gazette I. I can't seem to find a timeline after that 30 days has passed, but it's the final step before publication in the Gazette II. They provide a link to submit feedback to the DOT, perhaps he should write to them in favour of this change?
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#22 Post by shimmydampner » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:33 am

Let me get this straight: we are going to make an already easy to achieve (highest) license even easier to achieve? Yeah, real step in the right direction. :roll:
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#23 Post by Krimson » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:03 am

Let me get this straight: we are going to make an already easy to achieve (highest) license even easier to achieve? Yeah, real step in the right direction.
We are going to align out ATPL co-pilot credited hours with ICAO which will match nearly every other country out there.

Why is it that currently I can fly the same airspace and aircraft on a Canadian license as someone on an FAA license and only be credited half the flight time than the FAA pilot? Am I just sitting looking out the window for the leg I am not flying or am I acting as part of crew in a two-crew aircraft?
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#24 Post by shimmydampner » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:09 pm

What's wrong with having stricter requirements than other ICAO countries?
Nothing good will come of this.
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Re: ATPL Application process tips

#25 Post by Chaxterium » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:59 pm

shimmydampner wrote:What's wrong with having stricter requirements than other ICAO countries?
Nothing good will come of this.
You mean planes are going to drop out of the sky because our regulations will now be closer in line with those of the rest of the civilized world?

I'm not against the ATPL being difficult to achieve. It should be. But the requirements need to reflect the actual licence. It's an AIRLINE Transport Pilot Licence. AIRLINE. How on Earth then can anyone tell me that the time a First Officer acquires as—get this—an AIRLINE PILOT is worth half of Joe Blow bopping around in his 150?

Now the first argument anyone brings up in the pathetic attempt to defend this rubbish is that PIC time is extremely important and easily worth more towards the licence than FO time. Fair enough. I couldn't agree more. The experience gained when the buck stops with you is immeasurably important. However, that's why there is already a requirement for PIC time. Once that requirement is met why on earth would you punish an FO for every hour he or she acquires as an AIRLINE pilot?

It would be no different than saying that the time you spend driving your '93 Civic is more applicable to getting your AZ licence than driving an actual big rig!

If the ATPL is required to act as PIC in airline operations then why not make the requirement of that licence more relatable to the actual position it allows? As an example how about a requirement to have a certain amount of multi-crew time as they do in Europe? I would even be in favour of raising the PIC requirement.

Fortunately I just recently acquired my ATPL so this no longer affects me but I will be glad to see this change. It makes no sense to me.

Cheers,
Chax
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