Cirrus chutes

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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Shiny Side Up »

digits_ wrote: You might be describing me here. Why is this wrong ? If I had planned to fly to airport X, but the student wants to fly to airport Y because his parents live nearby, why is that wrong ?
If the student needs to prepare a navigation flight and he asks to fly over his house instead of a water tower, why is that wrong ? It makes him more motivated and he prepares the flight more precise because he really wants to find his house.

Love to hear your point of view!
The Colonel hits it on the head, its all about focus. Occasionally you can do this with students, but you'll find it a pretty slippery slope. In most cases the training aspect rapidly ceases to be the focus of the flight. What do you think is going to happen when they get over their house? "Hey you fly for a bit I want to take some pictures! Can you circle back? I think I see the wife in the yard. Hey I get to count all this time right?" What do you think the student takes away from this flight? What's worse is that you'll have trouble saying no to the student in the future. "I know we're supposed to go out and practice stalls but could we do it over to my parent's place to drop something off?" Again, where do you think they'll be focused on? This very obviously impacts people's ability to retain and learn stuff when there's competition for their attention.

Something that very often needs to be curbed with students is their assumption that they need to show up and build the hours. Because there's instructors who participate, its another contributing factor to the high times to completion we see.

Another thing to think about is when students are supposed to be practicing items solo, if up to that point there's been a lot of sightseeing and convenience trips done, do you think they're going to be all business?
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by digits_ »

Shiny Side Up wrote: [...]
Good points, thanks!
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by akoch »

Well, this also implies that you are dealing with a not very intelligent student. You still can do such flights, and actually make them useful for the student (ex: cruise flying by attitude and reference points takes a lot of time to finesse and it is unlikely to be done during the 45-hour intense training). But the student must understand that such flying does not count towards or substitutes the min 45h time required to learn and practice the exercises. It only supplements it. If he does not get it, it is a different problem altogether.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Colonel Sanders »

My problem with joyriding around is that the time
would be MUCH better spent on the fundamentals.

For example, cover up the dash entirely before engine
start. No airspeed, no altitude, no gyros, no nav.
Nothing except perhaps an audible stall warning horn.

With the dash entirely covered/blank, taxi, take off,
climb, fly to the practice area, and level off at 3000 AGL
(or thereabouts). Set up for slow flight. Drive around
with the stall warning on. Turns. Descents. Climbs.
Then do some stalls, again with no instruments. Then,
still with no panel, fly back to the airport, join the circuit
with no altimeter, and fly an approach and land with no
airspeed indicator.

You give me ONE HOUR - just ONE FLIGHT - with
these Cirrus twats and I will massively improve their
skill.

Or, you can just joyride around for an hour.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Haaaaayy gurl frendz! I'm here to snowball a couple of thoughts. Buckle up!

Don't be afraid, this kind of post from me is mostly question even if I put it out like a suggestion.
Rookie50 wrote:
Colonel Sanders wrote:
"Can we fly somewhere I have to go for business and build the hours along the way?"
Sigh. What people don't understand is that if you
are to have efficient, effective training, you need
focus.

Also implicit in that statement is that an hour in your
logbook is equivalent to any other hour in your logbook.
Pilots assert that all the time, and it's complete nonsense.
I routinely fly 0.1 air time doing surface acro. That's
much harder work than dozing off and on, watching
the auto-pilot fly cross-country for hours.

As you say, people are happy with really bad flight
training, because they expect the aircraft to pick
up the slack. That's a good way to get killed, unless
you make a habit of routinely pulling the chute handle,
as Cirrus seems to recommend :shock:
CS I agree. 1.0 logged means very little; its the focus applied that will determine the value of that 1.0
One of the problems I had with CPL training was I never made sense of "I don't need to spin this thing. I need to show the particular instructor his version of a spin recovery." I spent a lot of hours frustrated that the 172 wouldn't spin for me.



My thought is there's two ways to give good leading answers to the, can we go somewhere fun/productive in my opinion.

1. Sorry, no you can not, but that is exactly the sort of thing you can do by yourself with your PPL. Right now we are trying to focus on skills needed to get you there. Patience young padwan/(old friend).

The second is of course only an option if they are ready to do a dual cross country. (I realize it might be crazy, let me know.) Just because they get to pick the destination, it can still be a focused all business training type of flight.

2. "I don't know, can you? I have to warn you, I must be back that day, if the weather prevents us from getting back, I need to fly home and back to the plane later to pick it up on a commercial flight. So it has be to an airport with commercial service. Grab your VNC and a flight log sheet, pre flight the trip. I need a $200 per-diem, in addition I will be on the clock from when you bring me the paper work until we get back inside here after the trip. This could quickly cost a few thousand dollars that you won't have to pay, if you wait until you finish your PPL. You can't do it solo on your student license because you need to return right away on those trips."

I don't think it would be bad or counter productive at all. It will give them motivation to plan for a perceived reason and it talks to their wallet. "$200 plus $60/ hour while I'm on my business, possible $2800 airfare, maybe I'll wait to do this." If they are really in a panic about flying somewhere alone and have the money they might do it once, then realize they can do it themselves.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Shiny Side Up »

akoch wrote:Well, this also implies that you are dealing with a not very intelligent student.
No, rather it implies that the student has no idea of how training/learning works. I will say that I've discovered most of these things through experience, from when I was a less wise instructor. Lots of things sound like good ideas on the face, as an instructor you want to have your students somewhat enjoy their training, so I understand why many instructors are probably drawn to the whole scenario based set ups. In practice though it invites a ton of problems into people learning how to do things. It also invites problems into the student/instructor relationship. To me it always conveys that you as the instructor feel that air excersise items are less important than just joyriding, having fun or the student's convinience.

What's the more important objective here? Become proficient at flying or for it to fit the picture of what the student think flight training should be? Sometimes you got to shatter their illusions. I recall one student I had, on the first few flight lessons he had, he would pack a lunch with us. For some reason he was under the impression that we would be largely cruising around, enjoying the scenery while we "built hours" and he figured he might want a snack while we were engaging in this leisurely activity. I think on about the fourth flight he realised he wasn't going to have time to get at that sandwich. I debated on stealing his food some times, but as cruel of a person as I am, I think that would have been too much for him to take. Funny guy, If I remember rightly he cried when he passed his flight test.

Beefitarian wrote:One of the problems I had with CPL training was I never made sense
I could see where that would be a problem. :wink:
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Post by Beefitarian »

ZING!
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Colonel Sanders »

he cried when he passed his flight test
You taught Bubba Watson to fly? Awesome!

Image

Recently he invented the hovercraft golf cart.
On April 1st. But it wasn't a joke.

Image

You simply can't make this stuff up.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by akoch »

Well, how timely - here is what just came in to my email box:

Not a Pilot? Not a Problem.
Introducing Cirrus On Demand.

The Cirrus Life. It's Not Just For Pilots. Increased productivity. More face time. More family time. There are many powerful lifestyle and business advantages of personal flying in a Cirrus aircraft. For non-pilots or aspiring pilots, Cirrus On Demand™ is a transformational ownership solution that puts the general aviation lifestyle at your command with your very own pilot to fly and manage your Cirrus.

This turnkey service is an affordable option that can be combined with the purchase of a new 2013 Cirrus aircraft.

Your Very Own Flight Operations Department. For those who desire the lifestyle benefits of the Cirrus Life, but aren't interested in tackling the many tasks associated with managing an aircraft, Cirrus On Demand makes it simple by taking the hassle out of enjoying your new Cirrus.

The program puts your very own experienced, certified Cirrus pilot at your disposal for business and personal travel. As your dedicated pilot, available on your schedule, your aircraft is ready to go when you are.

Learn To Fly Options. For those who have always dreamed of learning to fly, the revolutionary Cirrus On Demand program also gives you the option to get your pilot's license. With a highly trained Cirrus flight instructor in the right seat, even a routine business trip becomes a step toward becoming a licensed pilot.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Shiny Side Up »

I see lots about convinience and "lifestyle", nothing about being a good pilot.

I rest my case.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by akoch »

From what I see it is marketed as an expensive nice shiny toy to the well off folks. The selling points are they convenience, "simplicity", lifestyle, prestige, "safety" etc.

The company does not seem to have any interest in flying itself, or piloting skills, the fun and challenging part of it. The marketing and airplane specifics follow this vision. I've yet to see many people who enjoyed hand-flying a Cirrus or going out for spins on it.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Shiny Side Up »

I suppose I just don't get it then. The whole idea of the Cirrus seems to revolve around conveying the illusion that you're sort of an aviation guy, but with no real interest in flying or airplanes for that matter. I find it bizarre someone would pay to be essentially chauffeured around in one, surely if one can afford it, you can ride in a bit more style, unless of course you like to pretend to be a pilot.
the revolutionary Cirrus On Demand program also gives you the option to get your pilot's license. With a highly trained Cirrus flight instructor in the right seat, even a routine business trip becomes a step toward becoming a licensed pilot.
This really reinforces my previous point, and hence why lots of these guys who own these things suck at flying them. People getting into places where they need to pull the chute is precisely what resluts from this convinience oriented scenario based training. I guess as long as you're cool doing it, I just want no part of it.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Should I attempt a CPL and start a babysitting service for pilot/new plane owners? Would I need a CPL, since they could put me down as a passenger in the log book?

I'd just be a consultant. Obviously need to call it something cool, "Safe pilot international." Show pilots how to do their flight log, navigate, tune the radio correctly to contact the right ATC people and build confidence while, "Going where they want to go." PPL holders and higher. I could probably end up with new CPLs once word got out.
pamphlet wrote:Got the license book, afraid to go somewhere with a real plane?
Know how to fly but lack cross country confidence?
I'll show you how to get places with style and grace like an ATPL holder.
20 years+ experience pretending to know what I'm doing and going on fun trips in light singles.


Citizen brand blue angel loaner watch included in certain affordable package deals.
Yes, I'm bored today. I even phoned someone about a real job earlier.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

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akoch wrote:From what I see it is marketed as an expensive nice shiny toy to the well off folks. The selling points are they convenience, "simplicity", lifestyle, prestige, "safety" etc.

The company does not seem to have any interest in flying itself, or piloting skills, the fun and challenging part of it. The marketing and airplane specifics follow this vision. I've yet to see many people who enjoyed hand-flying a Cirrus or going out for spins on it.
It's not an enjoyable plane to hand fly, IMO. That is one reason I have little interest in one.

I did'nt become a pilot, to learn how to push buttons well.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Rookie50 wrote: It's not an enjoyable plane to hand fly, IMO. That is one reason I have little interest in one.
That side yoke seems sucky. I don't even feel like trying to fly one. Never mind paying to buy it.
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Re:

Post by Rookie50 »

Beefitarian wrote:
Rookie50 wrote: It's not an enjoyable plane to hand fly, IMO. That is one reason I have little interest in one.
That side yoke seems sucky. I don't even feel like trying to fly one. Never mind paying to buy it.
I could see it being a handful during a turbulent ILS approach if you were hand flying it. Which I suspect rarely happens, which becomes an issue when you need to.
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Post by Beefitarian »

What about a bumpy VFR approach? Maybe get close and pull the handle.
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Re: Re:

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Rookie50 wrote: I could see it being a handful during a turbulent ILS approach if you were hand flying it. Which I suspect rarely happens, which becomes an issue when you need to.
The sidestick isn't an issue. I suspect its placed there partly to avoid overcontrolling the airplane. To yank back on it hard is sort of an awkward thing to do given how your arm rests. Keeping the airplane within its box is absurdly easy, it flies a stable approach, its got lots of momentum to punch through any turbulence (keep in mind that a Cirrus is heavier than a Cessna 182) pretty much does this feet on the floor. Take off is similarly easy with a minor bit of back pressure on the stick to make it rotate at the appropriate speed. Heavy responses in roll and yaw. Really hard to believe that people can mishandle these things. I would wager if we gave it a yoke that people could get two hands on, we'd see more crashes, as it is since it stays within its box so well, if someone mishandles it out, they probably have no idea to get it back in (keep in mind that the box is +/- 5 degrees on pitch and/or 15 degrees of bank/ rate one whichever is greater.)

Ab initio training on such an aircraft in my opinion would so horribly stunt a pilot's ability that they would be irredeemable from that point forward. They would be ingrained with a fear of bank and pitch (and not know what to do about yaw), but never really would have experienced them to know how they feel, look or how big the envelope really is, or what the edges of it are.
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Post by Beefitarian »

You might not want to do sales for them if it's commission. No wonder people are pulling the handle, it sounds like the only way to have fun in the thing.
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Re: Cirrus chutes

Post by Shiny Side Up »

At the end of the day, its not a machine designed for fun. Its mission is to go places in reasonable comfort. On that note, its also not a machine designed to train on, that's some sales guys hoping to tap another market for it. To paraphrase, learning to fly is difficult, anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is selling something. Do we really think the Cirrus sales staff came up with a "revolutionary" new way to flight train?
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