Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

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tonyhunt
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by tonyhunt »

We now have our Cessna 170B GOAW on-line at Rockcliffe Flying Club with several tailwheel instructors available. It will be available for rent, the rate is the same as the 172 trainers. I spent the last two weekends working with four other instructors. The winds at Gatineau this morning were great for it, 32015G20. JonathanR did a great job with some sporty winds today.

RFC had problems in previous summers getting experienced instructors for aeros and tailwheel. The experienced guys were only available part-time and weekends. We hope that with the C-170 available, more Club members will build tailwheel hours, even do their PPL or CPL in the C-170, and eventually they'll become full-time instructors. I did my Instructor rating flying in the back seat of my Husky. My first flight in a Cessna 150 was as an instructor.
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Tony Hunt
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Congratulations, Tony!

A C170 is a great tailwheel airplane, and should
help RFC pilots develop their stick & rudder skills :wink:

I know it's probably just me, but I find the C170
easier to land than the C120/140.
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jump154
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by jump154 »

Re Spectrum : http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =8&t=95133 Looks like the Super Cub is up for sale.
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Stephen Szikora
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by Stephen Szikora »

That's too bad because a good friend, Dean Toplis, just completed his instructor rating at Spectrum so that he could do instruction on the Super Cub this summer. He's got a lot of hours flying gliders (a glider instructor for 20 years) and taildraggers (including a ridiculous number of hours towing gliders.) I would have sent anyone to him for tailwheel instruction but perhaps they have decided not to continue with this type of training (insurance costs maybe?) A real shame.

I got my tailwheel checkout at Brampton about 10 years ago. The comments about a lack of tailwheel instructors ring true. At the time they had 27 instructors on the roster and only 3 of them would instruct on the Super Cub. The rest referred to it as the "kite." The 3 anointed ones were more experienced and I had some difficulty booking instructor time because of their other duties. Once I finished the checkout, I went back to my gliding club and that's when the real education began - towing gliders. A lot of take offs and landings and a real treat on grass.
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Last edited by Stephen Szikora on Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
trey kule
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by trey kule »

I know it's probably just me, but I find the C170
easier to land than the C120/140.
Nope. Not just you at all. In fact, I found the difference so noticeable I spent some time trying to figure
It out. Long time ago, but my thoughts were that the tailwheel on the 170 I flew was raised quite a bit so the plane actually landed a bit more level...almost like a 172, and possibly the visual was just a bit nicer. Again, not sure why, but many years later I can still recall the differences. The 170 was such a pussycat to land. Never pushed its limits on take offs or landings. The 180 just performed so much better for real bush work.
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AirFrame
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by AirFrame »

Is the 170 like the L-19? I've got a number of hours in the L-19 from glider towing, and a number in the 140 from my first tailwheel checkout. I was told that the L-19 was essentially a two-seat 170, and I found the L-19 extremely easy to land. The 140, not so much. It took a lot more practise to get smooth with the 140.
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Is the 170 like the L-19?
IMHO yes. If you took a 170 and put a funny
TCM O-470 in it with a fixed-pitch prop, with
two pilot seats, one in front of another, you
would have a Bird Dog.

The glider guys around here have an L-19 on
steroids, called a "Super Dog" (really) which
has had a firewall-forward upgrade with a Lyc
540 and a 3-blade metal prop. Climb is amazing.

Still a 170 with a big engine, though.
The 170 was such a pussycat to land
I always thought so. In comparison, landing the
120/140 was like trying to stuff a banana up a
monkey's *ss.
The 180 just performed so much better
Yeah, the 170 is nice, the 180 is better and the 185
is my favourite :wink: For flight training, though, the
170 has plenty of power and costs much less.

I am rather fond of the 145hp TCM O-300 in the early
172's and the 170. If you fuss over it a bit, it can run
very smoothly, which I like. The 4 cyl Lyc O-320 is
probably a better engine, but I always got the feeling
from them that they were running rough even when
they were new and in perfect condition.

And then there is the (parallel valve) 180hp Lyc O-360
which again runs as rough as a bucket of bolts but gosh,
is it ever a good engine. Sorta like the girl next door
who smokes and doesn't have the prettiest face and
you just know is going to pack on the pounds later in
life, but will put out any time you ask.
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FutureAir
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by FutureAir »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
Future Air (Holland landing) used to have
a Citabria.
Yes. Used to. The Citabria was sold, and we're no longer in Holland Landing unfortunately. The airport owners didn't like how busy we were, they wanted a nice quiet private airport. Just in Collingwood and Lake Simcoe Regional with six 172's now.
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pelmet
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by pelmet »

Colonel Sanders wrote:Brampton used to have a super cub, but
it's been wrecked about 10 times. Not
sure if they've repaired it after the latest
fiasco.
Make that 11 times...

Occurrence No.: A15O0013 Occurrence Type: ACCIDENT
Class: CLASS 5 Reportable Type:
Date: 2015-01-28 Time: 16:55:00
Region of Responsibility: ONTARIO
Location: BRAMPTON
Ground Injuries: Fatal: 0 Minor: 0
Serious: 0 Unknown: 0
---------- Aircraft 1 ----------
Registration: C-FKDD Operator:
Manufacturer: PIPER Operator Type: OTHER
Model: PA-18-150 CARs Info:
Injuries: Fatal: 0 Minor: 0
Serious: 0 Unknown: 0
Occurrence Summary:
A Brampton Flying Club Piper PA-18 aircraft (C-FKDD) was landing on Runway 15 at Brampton
(CNC3) when a gust of wind caused the aircraft to drift to the east side of the runway. The pilot
applied power and attempted to take off, but the wheels contacted some ice at the side of the
runway and pilot lost control of the aircraft. The aircraft spun 180 degrees damaging the left wing,
rear fuselage, propeller and engine. The pilot was not injured.
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FAF
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by FAF »

Harv's Air has 3 Citabria's.
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dsimo
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by dsimo »

Let's set the record straight, clarify the facts and bury the myths.

1. Tailwheel training WILL make you a better stick and rudder pilot. Most accidents (GA or commercial) are attributed to poor pilot skills. Those who learned in demanding aircraft, tough situations and with knowledgeable instructors will always have something to fall back on when the poop hits the prop.
2. Although preferable, ab initio training in T/W or conventional gear A/C is hard to come by for a few reasons: higher insurance costs, qualified instructors but mostly because they don't meet TC requirements for equipment (specific instrumentation like turn co-ordinators) and full dual controls. With an instructor sitting in the back seat of a SuperCub for example, they cannot reach flaps, fuel selector, primer, mag switches or carb heat...not fun or safe in an emergency.
3. Spectrum Airways has been teaching tailwheel skills successfully for seven years and going on eight. We teach those who already have a license (because of the aforementioned requirements) and between March and November (because she doesn't have the warmest cockpit) and the airplane has NEVER been wrecked. A minor incident two seasons ago (a ramper taxied the plane into a fuel step ladder) shortened that season by a couple months. The plane required a bulk inspection of the motor due to the prop strike and was back in service the following spring.
4. Spectrum Airways does not publish prices because they are so volatile. Fuel is one of our biggest costs. Do gas stations PAINT the fuel prices onto their signs? If you want to know our rates, please call us.
5. The SuperCub like anything in this world, is up for sale. If we get the right price, we will sell her because we can get another 172 and put a PA-12 on line for the same money. SuperCubs are classic, desirable aircraft. Do you want to teach someone to drive in a '67 Corvette? Spectrum will always do their best to have a tailwheel on line. If we can get one with decent cabin heat, we will even do ski training.
6. We are here to provide the best training in any kind of flying. Recreational, private, commercial, multi and IFR in our large and varied fleet in a relaxed and personal atmosphere. I stand by our reputation. Call or come and see us anytime.

Check out videos on tailwheel and other training at Spectrum by searching Flightchops on Youtube.
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Last edited by dsimo on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
jodirueger
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by jodirueger »

Tailwheel and tricycle instructor:

I notice a large difference in the stick and rudder skill of a tailwheel pilot in comparison to a tricycle gear pilot.

The development and popularization of tricycle gear was Cessna's marketing of the Cessna 172 (a nose wheel version of a Cessna 170) as a "Land-O-Matic". The intention was to have the planes "driven" onto and off of runways. The gear is very forgiving. The main difference being the land-o-matic pilot is able to relax when the plane gets onto the ground, whereas with a tailwheel pilot this is go-time and they're not done flying the plane until it's tied down.

Main things a nose wheel aircraft will allow you to get away with:

-Not using proper wind inputs during taxi
-Not maintaining centerline on take-off and landing
-Not keeping wings level during take-off and landing roll
-Not holding the nose off long enough on landing

Excessive forgiveness leads to a great deal of sin. In theory you and an instructor could have the discipline to enforce this on yourself, but I'd imagine they would be tailwheel instructor if they did.

BC has several schools with tailwheel training including Pro IFR, Glacier Air, Harv's Air out of Manitoba does as well. I am unfamiliar with any tailwheel schools/clubs in the GTA. If it is within your budget to buy a tailwheel aircraft to learn on it may be cheaper to do so than to rent for 200 hours to a CPL anyway and you could employ a reputable freelance instructor with tailwheel experience.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

and you could employ a reputable freelance instructor with tailwheel experience.
No not " could ".

You " should "

I remember when we got our first " Land O Matic " abortion from Cessna....

....none of us thought anyone would really want to teach people to fly on it when we had the 170 if they wanted four seats.
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by photofly »

http://cessna170.backcountrypilot.org/w ... -matic.jpg

You drive it up, you drive it down...

(Horn rimmed glasses and suit and tie mandatory.)
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dsimo
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by dsimo »

dsimo wrote:Let's set the record straight, clarify the facts and bury the myths.

1. Tailwheel training WILL make you a better stick and rudder pilot. Most accidents (GA or commercial) are attributed to poor pilot skills. Those who learned in demanding aircraft, tough situations and with knowledgeable instructors will always have something to fall back on when the poop hits the prop.
2. Although preferable, ab initio training in T/W or conventional gear A/C is hard to come by for a few reasons: higher insurance costs, qualified instructors but mostly because they don't meet TC requirements for equipment (specific instrumentation like turn co-ordinators) and full dual controls. With an instructor sitting in the back seat of a SuperCub for example, they cannot reach flaps, fuel selector, primer, mag switches or carb heat...not fun or safe in an emergency.
3. Spectrum Airways has been teaching tailwheel skills successfully for seven years and going on eight. We teach those who already have a license (because of the aforementioned requirements) and between March and November (because she doesn't have the warmest cockpit) and the airplane has NEVER been wrecked. A minor incident two seasons ago (a ramper taxied the plane into a fuel step ladder) shortened that season by a couple months. The plane required a bulk inspection of the motor due to the prop strike and was back in service the following spring.
4. Spectrum Airways does not publish prices because they are so volatile. Fuel is one of our biggest costs. Do gas stations PAINT the fuel prices onto their signs? If you want to know our rates, please call us.
5. The SuperCub like anything in this world, is up for sale. If we get the right price, we will sell her because we can get another 172 and put a PA-12 on line for the same money. SuperCubs are classic, desirable aircraft. Do you want to teach someone to drive in a '67 Corvette? Spectrum will always do their best to have a tailwheel on line. If we can get one with decent cabin heat, we will even do ski training.
6. We are here to provide the best training in any kind of flying. Recreational, private, commercial, multi and IFR in our large and varied fleet in a relaxed and personal atmosphere. I stand by our reputation. Call or come and see us anytime.

Check out videos on tailwheel and other training at Spectrum by searching Flightchops on Youtube.
NEW NEWS...We have installed a turn co-ordinator into the Super Cub and can now do Ab Initio training in tailwheel airplanes.
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thenewguy
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by thenewguy »

Does this instructor happen to still be around?

AirFrame wrote: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:24 pm Out here on the wet coast there was an instructor who was affiliated with one of the flying schools, who had his own Cessna 140. He would do ab-initio on the 140, up to the point of solo, then switch you to a 150 for a couple of hours before solo. That way you'd get the initial instruction showing what your feet were for, and the risky stuff with you taking a plane solo was done on a school plane with a training wheel. I seem to recall that later dual was mixed between the 140 and 150's.

That mix may increase the time taken to get your license, but it would also expose you to some variety of airplanes right off the bat. And since they're essentially the same plane anyway (performance wise), the difference isn't so great that it'll mess you up... It just gets you focusing on what's important while flying, and not focusing on one checklist for all time.
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Last edited by thenewguy on Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by AirFrame »

thenewguy wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:01 pmDoes this instructor happen to still be around?
Sorry, not as far as I know. He was based at Langley, and I don't recall the school he was affiliated with... Maybe someone at Langley Flying School or Skyquest would remember, although I don't know if they would expend much effort trying to find you an instructor that wasn't one of theirs...
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thenewguy
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Re: Flight Schools that teach with taildraggers

Post by thenewguy »

Thanks for the reply! I’ll keep digging.
AirFrame wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:17 am
thenewguy wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:01 pmDoes this instructor happen to still be around?
Sorry, not as far as I know. He was based at Langley, and I don't recall the school he was affiliated with... Maybe someone at Langley Flying School or Skyquest would remember, although I don't know if they would expend much effort trying to find you an instructor that wasn't one of theirs...
AirFrame wrote: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:24 pm Out here on the wet coast there was an instructor who was affiliated with one of the flying schools, who had his own Cessna 140. He would do ab-initio on the 140, up to the point of solo, then switch you to a 150 for a couple of hours before solo. That way you'd get the initial instruction showing what your feet were for, and the risky stuff with you taking a plane solo was done on a school plane with a training wheel. I seem to recall that later dual was mixed between the 140 and 150's.

That mix may increase the time taken to get your license, but it would also expose you to some variety of airplanes right off the bat. And since they're essentially the same plane anyway (performance wise), the difference isn't so great that it'll mess you up... It just gets you focusing on what's important while flying, and not focusing on one checklist for all time.
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