Be a Better Pilot

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CpnCrunch
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Re: Be a Better Pilot

#76 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:41 am

Chris M wrote:
My '75 172 POH only says that for takeoff. For crosswind landings the recommendations are to use minimum flap required and notes that elevator oscillation may be felt in full-rudder sideslip with flaps more than 20 degrees, but that this doesn't affect aircraft control. There is no mention of varying speed for crosswind landings.
The 172 doesn't specifically mention varying speed (the Archer and Cherokee POHs do). However if you have less flap, you will be flying faster.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Be a Better Pilot

#77 Post by shimmydampner » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:53 pm

Sure, by a bit, appropriate to the flap setting. If you want. In my experience with small Cessnas and other singles, max crosswinds and beyond were always easily possible with the full flap setting for a normal landing, no control issues, no elevator oscillation, and good rudder authority. As a result, my personal feeling is that if you feel that conditions are so difficult, that landing with reduced or no flap will be the difference between a safe and an unsafe approach and landing, you are in over your head and shouldn't be landing there. But I guess if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, even if you don't know why, who am I to tell you not to do it. The REAL problem I have with this is that, while this "technique" may have a basis in the POH for certain small aircraft, it gets touted as a flying truism across the board by pilots who don't have the experience or knowledge to back it up or understand why it may or may not be a good idea or what situations it may or may not be appropriate in. Nope, their instructor told them that, so now they just accept it as gospel henceforth, justifiable or not. Let's just have everyone zorch down the pipe in their little fart carts at 80kts to feel "safe" and then be left wondering why their landings suck and why flying seems so hard.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Be a Better Pilot

#78 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:21 pm

shimmydampner wrote:Sure, by a bit, appropriate to the flap setting. If you want. In my experience with small Cessnas and other singles, max crosswinds and beyond were always easily possible with the full flap setting for a normal landing, no control issues, no elevator oscillation, and good rudder authority. As a result, my personal feeling is that if you feel that conditions are so difficult, that landing with reduced or no flap will be the difference between a safe and an unsafe approach and landing, you are in over your head and shouldn't be landing there. But I guess if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, even if you don't know why, who am I to tell you not to do it. The REAL problem I have with this is that, while this "technique" may have a basis in the POH for certain small aircraft, it gets touted as a flying truism across the board by pilots who don't have the experience or knowledge to back it up or understand why it may or may not be a good idea or what situations it may or may not be appropriate in. Nope, their instructor told them that, so now they just accept it as gospel henceforth, justifiable or not. Let's just have everyone zorch down the pipe in their little fart carts at 80kts to feel "safe" and then be left wondering why their landings suck and why flying seems so hard.
It's gusty crosswinds that are the issue, not steady crosswinds, i.e. something like 20G30. You'll just have more control and be blown about less if your airspeed is higher, and your groundspeed won't be any higher (assuming there's a decent headwind component). It's not about being unable to track down the centreline in a crosswind, or landing with excessive airspeed...if that's an issue the student should get more training. It's just about having more control over the plane and being able to make it do exactly what you want and less likely to do any damage, which seems like a good thing to me.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Be a Better Pilot

#79 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:24 pm

shimmydampner wrote: Let's just have everyone zorch down the pipe in their little fart carts at 80kts to feel "safe" and then be left wondering why their landings suck and why flying seems so hard.
I generally find if you want to influence people insulting them is not very likely to convince them of anything than other than a strong desire to tune you out.

As I have said in other posts "one size fits all " pronouncement usually don't provide much insight. So saying that every landing in every kind of aircraft under every condition has to be done with full flaps, or you are doing it "wrong" is for me, an unconvincing argument

My personal experience is use of flaps should be decided by conscious choice and for light aircraft is heavily influenced by the type of flap and the experience level of the pilot. So for instance I make every landing in my Grumman AA1B with full flaps because the small simple non slotted flaps don't have a big impact on the landing. However if I am flying a Cessna C 172 with 40 degree flaps I tend to use a reduced flap setting in crosswinds.

The reason for this is that the flaps are very powerful and that to get a proper tail low landing the airspeed at touchdown must be around 50 knots. Less flaps allows the same landing attitude with a high speed which gives more aileron effectiveness, more rudder effectiveness due to reduce rudder blanking and less severe crosswind effects. I could land with full flaps but why would I want to do that when my personal experience is that reduced flap equals better landings.

For less experienced pilots my personal experience over 29 + years of instructing was that students did better with reduced flaps when conducting cross wind landings in Cessna trainers.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Be a Better Pilot

#80 Post by shimmydampner » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:56 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I generally find if you want to influence people insulting them is not very likely to convince them of anything than other than a strong desire to tune you out.
I'm not concerned about influencing too many people, least of all, anonymous folks on the internet, but I did not intend to insult anyone.
Big Pistons Forever wrote:As I have said in other posts "one size fits all " pronouncement usually don't provide much insight. So saying that every landing in every kind of aircraft under every condition has to be done with full flaps, or you are doing it "wrong" is for me, an unconvincing argument
I certainly never said that every landing in every aircraft under every condition MUST be, or even SHOULD be done full flap or that doing otherwise is wrong. (In fact, I can think of a fairly common operational situation in a certain aircraft type in which I usually land with take off flap.) I was just pointing out that, in my experience as it relates to the topic of gusting crosswinds, it CAN be done without compromising safety or the controllability of the types of aircraft with which I am familiar, and therefore I think it would be ignorant to suggest that doing so is improper technique.
I think you and I are actually trying to make the same point here. I am bothered by the all too common pronouncements like proper crosswind technique is to use reduced flaps and if it's gusting, come in extra fast. It's not necessarily the espoused technique that bothers me as much as the fact that usually when I hear it, it is being put forth as some sort of incontrovertible truth and I just so happen to be a non-believer in this particular dogma. Personally, I think it's little more than a false sense of security, but if a person needs some extra warm and fuzzies on approach, that's really none of my concern.
Big Pistons Forever wrote:My personal experience is use of flaps should be decided by conscious choice and for light aircraft is heavily influenced by the type of flap and the experience level of the pilot. So for instance I make every landing in my Grumman AA1B with full flaps because the small simple non slotted flaps don't have a big impact on the landing. However if I am flying a Cessna C 172 with 40 degree flaps I tend to use a reduced flap setting in crosswinds.

The reason for this is that the flaps are very powerful and that to get a proper tail low landing the airspeed at touchdown must be around 50 knots. Less flaps allows the same landing attitude with a high speed which gives more aileron effectiveness, more rudder effectiveness due to reduce rudder blanking and less severe crosswind effects. I could land with full flaps but why would I want to do that when my personal experience is that reduced flap equals better landings.

For less experienced pilots my personal experience over 29 + years of instructing was that students did better with reduced flaps when conducting cross wind landings in Cessna trainers.
See, you are making my point for me. You evidently have significant experience and know what you are talking about. You can use that experience in conjunction with your knowledge to develop an appropriate, sound, defensible technique that works for you. You are not just ignorantly regurgitating something that someone ignorantly regurgitated at you once.
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