Aerobatic flights for non-pilots?

[RyanHealy29]

Hello all,
I've recently passed the RCAF aircrew selection process, and while nothing is guaranteed of course, I was told to expect there'd be no problems at the selection board. In case this should happen, I'd like to get a couple flights in an aerobatic plane to make sure that a) I like it, and b) I don't get sick or seriously disoriented during that kind of flight. I'd like to figure that out before I have to make any decisions or sign any contracts.

A couple of questions:

1) Is this even a thing? Will aerobatic plane owners/schools take up non pilots for these kinds of flights? I know I've heard of this in the past, but it doesn't seem particularly readily available here in Southern Ontario from what I'm seeing on the web.

2) As a non-pilot (I have 4.2 hours doing basic maneouvers in a DA-20), would it be unreasonable to expect to be able to take control of the plane at altitude to try some of the simpler aerobatic manoeuvres myself?

3) I've seen mention on the web in a few places of a Grob G115C based in Ottawa that seems to have been available for this kind of thing, which would be perfect since the RCAF primary trainer is the Grob G120A, but the email I was able to find for the person bounced. Does anyone know if this plane is still around and still available? And if so, who to contact?

4) Does anyone know of any other options in Southern Ontario, or if need be, Eastern Ontario, for the kind of flights I'm looking for?

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ryan

[RyanHealy29]

I notice Ottawa Flight Services has a Grob G115C. Is it safe to assume that there are not two of these planes in the Ottawa area and that's the one that used to be privately owned?

[looproll]

I think you are putting the cart ahead of the horse a little. If you want to be a military officer and pilot in the CF, go for it! I wouldn't base your decision on a flight as a passenger doing aerobatics with lord-knows-who at the controls.

As a regular flyer of aerobatics, I DO NOT like being a passenger for very long on said flights. You are much more likely to feel sick and disoriented if you are not in control. You can't anticipate the Gs properly. When I'm a passenger, I'm not as focused on the maneuver and notice my inner ear more. I can only take short doses of someone else cranking the plane around, especially when I'm not sure when or how suddenly the person will be pulling or pushing.

I'm not sure if I can drive F1, so maybe I won't even get my driver's licence. You'll be fine.

[trampbike]

I'd like to get a couple flights in an aerobatic plane to make sure that a) I like it, and b) I don't get sick or seriously disoriented during that kind of flight. I'd like to figure that out before I have to make any decisions or sign any contracts.

Bob Hoover was airsick every flights when he began in aviation.
He got over it. No big deal.

If I don't fly for a couple of weeks and go do an aerobatic flight, I will feel uneasy.
If someone else has controls, I might get sick. Just bring a bag... or two. No big deal.

If airsickness prevents you from completing flights on the Grob, they'll put you on meds and the airsick course.
It is very effective.

If airsickness prevents you from completing flights on the Harvard II (almost everyone feels uneasy at best on the first couple of clearhood flights), they'll put you on meds and you'll continue flying. If the meds don't work, they'll put you on the airsick course.
It is extremely effective.


Congrats on passing aircrew selection. Which entry program did you apply for?

Cheers
Olivier

[B52]

Aerobatics, especially in a tailwheel, will make you a more competent safer and more confident pilot.

There has always been a number of instructors who believed that some aerobatic training should be mandatory
for instructor ratings.

The Grob while a nice airplane, and aerobatic, is still limited in what it can do.

The Decathalon has a wing designed for inverted flight and its a tailwheel which at least lets
you pretend its a Pitts or Extra etc.

If you take a real interest and go on to competition aerobatics, you will raise you game to a new level.
It's not about how many G's you can pull but a form of art, aerial artistry, and imparting to the rest of the
aviation world, how it maneuvers can be low G, lots of fun, that leave you with a smile on your face
and "a high" that lasts for weeks.

I recently renewed my Class One Aerobatic Instructor Rating in Ottawa and
I'm always looking for an excuse to go flying.

PM is open.


.

.

[RyanHealy29]

Thanks for the advice thus far all! Glad to find out now that even season pilots can get a bit sick when they aren't in control so I didn't go and fill up a bag and quit because I thought my stomache couldn't hack it haha. I think I'd still like to get a couple hours in, but at least now I know not to think the sky is falling if I don't automatically have a stomach of steel!

Trampbike, my entry program is DEO. There will be a selection in November for January BMOQ and then likely one again in February for spring BMOQ, so hoping to get in on one of those. I didn't even realize there was an airsick program! I've never been airsick before on any flights but I've also never done any kind of particularly adventurous flying!

[trampbike]

As a DEO, you owe the Forces absolutely nothing before you get your Wings.
That means you could get out voluntarily at any point during your training.
If you get your Wings, you'll need to stay at least 7 more years with the Forces.

Having hours before showing up to Portage is in my opinion a good thing, simply
because you'll feel more at home in the air, but is is in no way a requirement.
Get some stick time if you enjoy it and don't mind spending the money, but don't
do it if it's only because you think it's going to help you for the RCAF training.

Good luck
Olivier

[cgzro]

I used to have problems but it goes away with exposure. Anybody can get used to it so don't let early sickness stop you, just keep at it and it'll go away. You'll find some sugar helps. a coke or chocolate bar or a candy. Don't go on an empty stomach.

You can get a bit of exposure in a swimming pool. Close your eyes and go under water and spin your arms, you can get a good rotation rate going forward and backward and get dizzy and queazy quickly. Or you can roll under water too. Those exercises done till you feel queazy then stop will help acclimatize faster in a plane. You can factor them into a swimming regime to help stay in shape, every length do a few rolls... Half way down pool do a forward loop or backward loop.. Etc.

[trampbike]

Eyes-closed on a swing-set works pretty well too.

Never thought about the pool trick! I'll try it if I ever find myself not flying for a while.

[TeePeeCreeper]

If the meds don't work, they'll put you on the airsick course.
It is extremely effective.

You've picked my curiosity.... What does this so called "airsick course" entail?

All the best,
TPC

[trampbike]

I haven't had to do any of the airsick courses, but I almost had to.
Here is what I know from what colleagues have told me:

In Portage (phase 1), they put you on meds (I guess Gravol and some sort of uppers), and they make you sit in the Grob while an instructor is doing aeros for a couple of flights. I think your final "airsick" flight has to be done without the meds.
The Grob can fly under negative G for quite a long time, and is certified for tailslides, so the instructor can have a lot of fun.
They do this until you are close to puking, then they land.

In Moose Jaw (phase 2), they get you on meds and you continue to fly. Most people have problem with clearhood initially, but feel perfectly fine flying instrument missions, so they keep on going. After a while they get you off the meds. If airsickness comes back (it happens to some after the first sole, when the clearhood flights become aerobatic heavy), they put you back on meds. If it doesn't work, then you are put on the "spin course". For weeks and weeks, you sit on a spinning chair in a dark room, and you are asked to tilt your head on the sides, forward and back, every minute or so. As the weeks go by, you start spinning faster and faster. Once you get through this, they put you on the Harvard II for a couple of flights and the instructor is going to do aeros. By this time, most people have now a very very strong stomach!

Cheers,
Olivier

[cgzro]

Sheesh- start the swimming exercises.. . Cheaper and you get exercise:)
Meds ... Yikes.

[PilotDAR]

I have happily never been vulnerable to airsickness, for reasonable periods of aerobatics. I was already a new pilot in the late '70's, when was also working in the shop at York University. A spaceflight training device was built, and I ended up a guinea pig.

It was a 10 or so foot diameter sphere, featureless on the inside, though stickers could be added to provide feature. The subject sat in a chair at the center of the sphere. The sphere could be "pitched" nose up or nose down, but was actually driven 'round, so it could go around as long as needed. The chair could also be turned, so pitch became roll. There was nothing else in view to the subject, beyond one's feet on the footrest. There was a hearty seatbelt on the chair.

It was the most disorienting feeling I have ever known to sit in the chair as the sphere was pitched nose down (it rolled upward in front of you) It was an overwhelming feeling of "going to fall face first out of this chair! I was entirely motionless of course, the sphere did all the moving, but what sensory contradiction!

To the OP, go ride the rollercoaster for a day, if that works okay for you, so will aerobatics. If you don't like the rollercoaster, don't give up, once you're flying the aeros, you'll probably be fine anyway...

[B52]

G- Tolerance
If you have not done any aerobatics for a while, odds are you revert back

to the susceptibility of a first time aero flight.

It takes me a around 3 flights to build back some tolerance and what I noticed most
recently is that when you are doing the flying, and in full smooth gentle control, you can do
long periods of aeros without "wearing out" , turning a pale colour for a while till you do some
straight and level.

If you are doing an airforce program, any and all aero flights you do before the official training
will build up your G tolerance and enable you to "enjoy" the ride which means you probably do a lot
better than average.

As Peter pointed out, you can do exercises in a swimming pool but, its G-Free.

Getting hold of a model, and do maneuvers imaging what you will expect to see and feel.
I dont recall ever seeing a competition aerobatic pilot who did not spend long period in mental
simulation and often using a hand as airplane.

Decades later, I can tell you that most of them are dead and most of those aircraft ended up in
fatal accidents.

The Airshow pilots as a group seem to run a 5% chance each year of having a fatal.

Aerobatic training, should be safer than flying with someone who does not have
"fun flying" experience.

[Pop n Fresh]

Interesting about the swimming. I used to have an iron stomach but just thought it was by chance. I have developed a normal amount of queasy on certain rides at Calaway Park going with the kids. I find the boat that is basically just a giant swing the worst. I suspect it's the negative "G" as you change direction at the top.

I thought it was just because of aging.

The point? Oh right, sorry.

I used to swim quite a bit and due to chlorine would close my eyes under water. I also enjoyed doing loops or other odd direction changes when diving and sometimes trying to collect things from the bottom of the 12 foot tank.

[B52]

There is a lot of difference between airsickness from aerobatics and "sea sickness".
Navy guys tell me that they get sick every time they go out and some are sick for months
on end.

I used to do a lot of diving, and if I'm standing up in a boat, in severe swells
I'm ok. Move your head around, sitting down, and with a few lateral moves, it comes on
fast. The worst is just sitting at anchor, in a swell, getting geared up, tight
suit around your neck and some idiot decides to have a cigarette that makes
lots of people want to puke in particular if you are used to smoke free environment.

Then there are there ditching simulations that I had to go thru in the last airline
I worked for. Tumbling people around is a good way of putting on stress and seeing
how they perform under stress. I don't recall anyone getting motion sickness
in those.

Rather than taking gravol, when we take people for aerobatics, it's more important to keep the ball in the centre, the smoothest entry and exit and keep it all fun.

[Ruckus]

There is a G115C on line at Journey Air in Windsor available for aerobatics.

[Shiny Side Up]

I hate to say it, but I'm suprised that the selection process just doesn't bounce people who have problems with airsickness. It seems to eliminate them on a lot of other reasons, but will put in the effort to train this out of someone? Seems off. Is the program desperate for aircrew right now?

[Pop n Fresh]

A buddy that was a loadie on C-130s told us once, "Everyone gets airsickness in the Air Force eventually. Fill a bag and move on." So maybe they don't consider it a big deal like we do when it happens.

It might be easier to over come if a person does not think of it as something that will happen again, thinking of it as an event instead of a condition.

[Shiny Side Up]

Depends on the individual I think, sometimes airsick is an "event", sometimes its a condition people are prone to. I know some who no matter how much just get airsick all the time, even in the smoothest of conditions. It would just seem odd that its something we'd consider rehabilitating if that's even the right word, especially with valuable airplane time.