Cannabis Policy ???

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N181CS
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#101 Post by N181CS » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:01 am

Vic your memory is short... let me draw you a map. Count 1 2 3 4 5 with your fingers. Now keep those fingers up I don't want you to forget the number we are talking about here. It's 5 just as a reminder. Go back to the post and word # 5 will give you your answer. ( now do, to and the count as full words, thats another debate. for this exercise we will assume yes.)
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Victory
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#102 Post by Victory » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:16 am

What?
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Lightchop
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#103 Post by Lightchop » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:22 am

av8ts wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:58 am
TC has said there is a zero tolerance policy for pilots in order to maintain a valid medical. Not sure exactly what that means
Well it's still illegal. Just wait.

So much is going to change over the next decade and more. It was inevitable that the rules would be extremely strict at the beginning. I wager in a few years once it's legal and companies are free to test and do R&D, we will see big advancements in tech surrounding cannabis including roadside testing and better understanding of impairment.
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lownslow
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#104 Post by lownslow » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:30 am

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:22 am
I wager in a few years once it's legal and companies are free to test and do R&D, we will see big advancements in tech surrounding cannabis including roadside testing and better understanding of impairment.
How has this not yet happened in any other country yet? It's not like we're the first do leagalize it.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#105 Post by Dry Guy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:00 am

We're the first nanny state to legalize it though.
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av8ts
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#106 Post by av8ts » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am

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Doug Moore
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#107 Post by Doug Moore » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:56 am

Deleted by Doug Moore
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N181CS
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#108 Post by N181CS » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Poor Vic... looks like someone was being nice as you were unable to follow the map to get the answer to your question. Ask a dumb question get a dumb answer. The answer was google news feeds and was in the post for you to read and then let your fingers do some actual work. Where is the direct to button and the shortcut....
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#109 Post by Victory » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:11 am

I submit to your cunning intellect.
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No Smoke, No Fire
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#110 Post by No Smoke, No Fire » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:57 am

“cunning”.......................
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#111 Post by Bede » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:14 am

seven-oh-nooo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:58 am
I'll tell ya what sucks: nobody has any answers. Transport hasn't publicly lifted a finger on offering any guidance at all for this, they best they'll commit to is 602.03 which is absolute fluff of the same type they write when they want to retain the ability to punish you whenever and however they like. "No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft while using any drug that impairs the person’s faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way," will vary from person to person and the way by which it's measured can't be locked down. For all intents and purposes it's useless to all but a vindictive inspector.

Now on the other side you have a company trying to write a dope policy while Transport, who is supposed to be in charge and demonstrating leadership, telling them they're on their own. At some point in the not-too-distant future there will be headline news about someone in a trusted position showing up for work high or making a mistake and that coming out as a contributing factor. When that happens it's reasonable for me to expect a letter from our favourite regulatory spaceman demanding answers, even if it wasn't my pilot. Same thing happened when that Sunwing(?) pilot showed up for work drunk a while back, except that time there was actually a way that I could demonstrate company compliance with the law.

This is why in the next week or two as we see more and more pot policies published and shared here I expect the trend to be seen as harsh. If you don't like it, take it up with Transport.
There's a letter signed by TC Director General that explicitly states that consumption of marijuana invalidates your medical certificate. This is no different than many other drugs that you can't use on your days off and hold a medical.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#112 Post by Dry Guy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:51 am

Ever? I mean I puffed a joint when I was 16. Does that mean I can never hold a medical certificate? Because I've held one since I was 15.
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No Smoke, No Fire
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#113 Post by No Smoke, No Fire » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:22 am

I believe the letter used the phrase “obtain a medical” and not “invalidates a medical”. Splitting hairs? Perhaps.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#114 Post by Bede » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:35 am

No Smoke, No Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:22 am
I believe the letter used the phrase “obtain a medical” and not “invalidates a medical”. Splitting hairs? Perhaps.
You're correct, but if you can't "obtain" a medical, you can't renew it either.

Sorry, it's on my what's app. I can't get it on here. Here are some quotes.
Cannabis use may cause immediate impairment but also causes longer-lasting impairment that may not be obvious to the user or the people around them
There is scientific consensus regarding the long-lasting effects of cannabis on individuals, even after impairment is no longer felt. However, current tests for the psycho active chemical in cannabis do not correspond with impairment levels.
Impairment caused by cannabis is a serious issue for TC given its potential to threaten aviation safety.
Currently, the use of cannabis is a disqualifying factor for obtaining a medical certificate to fly or control aircraft (sic)
signed, Nicholas Robson, Director General and Fracois Collins, Associate Director General
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#115 Post by AirFrame » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:49 am

There is scientific consensus regarding the long-lasting effects of cannabis on individuals, even after impairment is no longer felt. However, current tests for the psycho active chemical in cannabis do not correspond with impairment levels.
I would have been more impressed with the letter if they had cited the scientific studies that they claim show consensus. It sounds like an unsupported appeal to authority that people are expected to take at face value without question.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#116 Post by Victory » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:03 am

Anecdotally, I think we have all at one time or another met the stereotypical burnt out pothead. For us to say it has no lasting effect after it is no longer felt is just being disingenuous.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#117 Post by altiplano » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:04 pm

Victory wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:03 am
Anecdotally, I think we have all at one time or another met the stereotypical burnt out pothead. For us to say it has no lasting effect after it is no longer felt is just being disingenuous.
Not disagreeing, there are burn outs...

However there are, and I know, numerous exceedingly smart, creative, top of their field, individuals who smoke marijuana - business leaders, professionals - certainly not the stereotype you cite... more accomplished and successful than the majority of pilots I know...

stereotype

a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.
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seven-oh-nooo
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#118 Post by seven-oh-nooo » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:00 pm

Bede wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:14 am
There's a letter signed by TC Director General that explicitly states that consumption of marijuana invalidates your medical certificate. This is no different than many other drugs that you can't use on your days off and hold a medical.
But for how long? That's the real problem here and one nobody is committing to answer. The bottle of NyQuil in my medicine cabinet also invalidates my medical certificate, but not forever.

I also received the letter and have noted that it's been very carefully worded to really give no new answers. They give terms without definitions, specifically the word using comes up a lot. "Using" implies that it's being taken for its effects and 602.03 basically says pilots have to be sober which I think we all agree is a good thing. However there isn't even a hint of how long between use and when some high percentile of people will be sober again. You know, like with alcohol. That more than anything is the discrepancy that's causing all the headaches among the jerks who have airlines to run.

So now here I am, having to issue a directive. "Do what you want but be good to go at work" somehow satisfies 602.03 but leaves me responsible for someone else misjudging their own capacity and my friendly neighbourhood inspector has made direct threats to that effect, or I could say "The answer is no, absolutely not, not ever, not even once," when the CARS are standing behind their, "Just say 'Maybe.'"
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N181CS
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#119 Post by N181CS » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:51 pm

This is exactly it. That bottle of NyQuil and many other OTC medications cause impairment temporarily. Have they been tested to make sure a pilot can take them. Last I checked otc does not have on the label; acceptable to all unless you have a job in one of these fields... are planes falling out of the sky? Not that I have heard of? so if pilots are doing "it" the testing is already going on and I will wager pilot are doing it. Also for the Government to say go buy it and do what you want with it, it clearly is rather benign unless you have these jobs....but driving car or a bus, being a doctor etc is acceptable.... I'm not for or against it, it's got about as much medical value as coffee just working in the opposite. I just don't see how they can say because of your job and our lack of facts your still banned. Coffee and Nicotine all has lasting negative effects, COPD and cancer just to name a few. (Reduced lung capacity and low to potentially no O environment...) They also are physically addictive and anything that has a chemical dependency factor is going to impair you if you can't get it. It's like saying butt sex it legal but you the pilot or cop can't do it cause we don't know the effects of shit on your stick. That would be untrue as people have been butt fucking for a very long time. If you don't need an Rx for it and it's legal to buy, I say just show up fit to work. No company has the right to tell you what to do in your free time legal or not. That's your time and they are not paying for it. This shit has only been banned for 90ish years. No one cared about until the 30s and in Canada they still can't explain how or why it became illegal.
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#120 Post by hithere » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:02 am

What is this “letter “ you guys are talking about?
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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#121 Post by plhought » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:22 am

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Re: Cannabis Policy ???

#122 Post by CanadianEh » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:26 am

Thanks for sharing, that was definitely worth a read and good to see the AC Unions are on the same page and confronting the company together.
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