737 max

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3849
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:23 pm

Calls to the call center are now being rejected. Glad my company now has Fly Zed online booking and that I am on an Embraer tomorrow. Website say 9-12000 pax per day carried by AC on the Max.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:40 pm

Pilots don't have to release the brake when their colleagues are hung out to dry for reasons behind their control.

I guess we will eventually see where the cards fall, but I don't think the corporation will be showing theirs early on this matter, willingly at least.

Next will be an 88 hour month and max days removal request for April on all fleets to pick up the slack...
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Jean-Pierre
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Jean-Pierre » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:12 pm

Company has what 500 MAX pilot out of 4000? So worst case scenario all those position were eliminated you would need around seniority 3500 to have a spot still. This will not happen though. There are too many empty position to fill up.
---------- ADS -----------
  

truedude
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:30 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by truedude » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:41 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:12 pm
Company has what 500 MAX pilot out of 4000? So worst case scenario all those position were eliminated you would need around seniority 3500 to have a spot still. This will not happen though. There are too many empty position to fill up.
This doesn't even make sense. It isn't like Air Canada doesn't still need 24 air planes worth of service. There won't be any layoffs, just perhaps a major pivot in types.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
pilotbzh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:33 am
Location: yyz

Re: 737 max

Post by pilotbzh » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 pm

planes will be flying in a week or 2 when new software is available, patch won't lets MCAS pitch down unless both airspeed or both AOA sensors agreed..

My though anyways
---------- ADS -----------
  

av8ts
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: 737 max

Post by av8ts » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:50 pm

pilotbzh wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 pm
planes will be flying in a week or 2 when new software is available, patch won't lets MCAS pitch down unless both airspeed or both AOA sensors agreed..

My though anyways
I agree. Boeing is not just sitting on their hands doing nothing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Old fella » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:03 pm

Gotta pity the carriers here in Canada and the US of A who utilize this ‘37 type in question tis gonna be rough for sure in all aspects. One hopes their travelling customers has understanding/sympathy for what these airlines are going through.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Old fella
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Old fella » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:16 pm

av8ts wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:50 pm
pilotbzh wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 pm
planes will be flying in a week or 2 when new software is available, patch won't lets MCAS pitch down unless both airspeed or both AOA sensors agreed..

My though anyways
I agree. Boeing is not just sitting on their hands doing nothing.
Undoubtably. Boeing will have a software update out quicker than Microsoft will for cumulative updates on their Windows Ten version 1809.MS sends out cumulative updates on that operating system every two weeks. 😉😉
---------- ADS -----------
  

Guilden
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:12 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Guilden » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am

Hey Boeing, Airspeed Unreliable QRC:

1. Autopilot (if engaged)...Disengage
2. Autothrottle (if engaged)..Disengage
3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches...CUTOUT

Etc Etc


PROBLEM SOLVED.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Guilden
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:12 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Guilden » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:01 am

Judging by the preliminary reports, these crews likely were potentially thinking they had an airspeed issue and focused maybe on that QRC first (stick shakers, overspeed etc etc) one controls while the other is grabbing the QRC... Trim wheel noise in the background along with all the other sounds this issue produces can be very distracting, why doesn't boeing add cutting out the the stab trim on the unreliable airspeed QRC? My thoughts anyway..
---------- ADS -----------
  

jinxer226
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:01 am

Re: 737 max

Post by jinxer226 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:36 am

Seems like most of them are being ferried to YQG. Already 4 Sunwing B38M here. 3 Air Canada's scheduled to arrive today as of current time.Heard it through the grapevine that there could be 8 total Air Canada B38M being ferried to YQG.
---------- ADS -----------
  

groundpilot
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:10 am
Location: A Smokn' Hole

Re: 737 max

Post by groundpilot » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:20 pm

Guilden wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am
Hey Boeing, Airspeed Unreliable QRC:

1. Autopilot (if engaged)...Disengage
2. Autothrottle (if engaged)..Disengage
3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches...CUTOUT

Etc Etc


PROBLEM SOLVED.
Point taken...

But sad fact is all world operators don't have the same experienced and trained crews that North America is lucky to have. Sounds like there have been some reports from US operators that are just coming to light. Pure speculation, but guessing those pilots handled it properly and didn't make headlines.

Apparently the FO onboard Ethiopian had 200 hours. So essentially the captain was flying single pilot. Could it be a factor with a mechanical issue?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:47 pm

Flying single pilot is safer than flying with someone with 200 hrs (depending on the person of course). You only have to worry about yourself making mistakes and don't rely on anyone else to take the correction actions.
---------- ADS -----------
  

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2664
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 pm

Guilden wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am
Hey Boeing, Airspeed Unreliable QRC:

1. Autopilot (if engaged)...Disengage
2. Autothrottle (if engaged)..Disengage
3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches...CUTOUT

Etc Etc


PROBLEM SOLVED.
That's not the drill for Airspeed Unreliable at AC. That is close to the Runaway Stab Trim Drill except you left out attempting to reverse the trim electrically first then the CUTOUT switches, then grabbing the trim wheel and manually reversing the trim.

The MCAS system is only active with flaps up in manual flight (No AP).
---------- ADS -----------
  

BMLtech
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:37 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by BMLtech » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:24 pm

pilotbzh wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 pm
planes will be flying in a week or 2 when new software is available, patch won't lets MCAS pitch down unless both airspeed or both AOA sensors agreed..

My though anyways
That's probably wishful thinking. Any major change to the MCAS logic would have to be fully validated by flight testing and then the FAA would have to buy off on it. I cant see them rushing in a quick patch if this in fact turns out to be the issue. And depending what's involved, hardware and/or wiring changes may also be needed.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
RRJetPilot
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 10:43 am

Re: 737 max

Post by RRJetPilot » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:27 pm

3-4 months most likely.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:06 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 pm
Guilden wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am
Hey Boeing, Airspeed Unreliable QRC:

1. Autopilot (if engaged)...Disengage
2. Autothrottle (if engaged)..Disengage
3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches...CUTOUT

Etc Etc


PROBLEM SOLVED.
That's not the drill for Airspeed Unreliable at AC. That is close to the Runaway Stab Trim Drill except you left out attempting to reverse the trim electrically first then the CUTOUT switches, then grabbing the trim wheel and manually reversing the trim.

The MCAS system is only active with flaps up in manual flight (No AP).
Maybe he's saying do the stab trim cutout for airspeed unreliable too, so you don't end up getting pushed over by a bad airspeed indication or air data indication.

The pitch/power settings are goofy on that drill too... used to be "establish normal pitch/power", or something to that effect... I guess some guys don't know what normal is though...
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1400
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: 737 max

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 pm

We're all still assuming it's the MCAS. Until they actually look at the FDR, everybody is guessing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Fanblade
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Fanblade » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:34 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/ ... ts/584941/

Don’t ground the aircraft. Ground the pilots.

In the days since the horrific Ethiopian Airlines crash, I have received a lot of email from pilots, aircraft engineers, and others with experience in aviation. These have been in response to three previous posts: first here, then here, then most recently here (with quotes from pilots’ observations about the Boeing 737 Max via NASA’s Aviation Safety Reporting System).

While I sift through the other messages, let me start with one from a highly experienced pilot and flight instructor. His name is Wally Magathan, and he has worked as an airline pilot, an Air Force pilot and C-5 Galaxy flight instructor, and an instructor in airline L-1011 flight-simulators. I know him through COPA, the organization of pilots and owners of Cirrus’s small single-engine airplanes.

 With Magathan’s permission, I quote a post from him, offering a professional’s view of risk-management after these two Boeing 737 Max tragedies.

(For brief background, and as a reminder: the Boeing 737 Max has different handling characteristics from previous 737 models, because its engines are in a different place on the wings. This new engine placement increased the tendency of the plane to “pitch up”—that is, to point its nose upward, in a way that could increase the risk of aerodynamic stall. The MCAS system was added to offset this tendency, when detected and when the plane was being hand-flown, by automatically pointing the nose back down. The main hypothesis about last fall’s Lion Air crash, in Indonesia, is that this MCAS system went out of control, because of a failed sensor reading, and pushed the nose down, down, down, until the plane plunged into the sea. The main question after that crash was whether the Lion Air pilots had been appropriately informed about how MCAS worked, and trained on how to turn it off. No one yet is sure whether the same problem was part of the recent Ethiopian Airlines crash.)

Magathan says this about training, design flaws, and who should be grounded, when:

 -Boeing’s design deficiency [JF note: having to add the MCAS, to offset the pitch-up problem] sets up the need for pilot training on how to overcome it.

-Boeing’s failure to highlight the change resulted in no specific MCAS pilot training.

Those two big mistakes, it now appears, likely caused two tragic major catastrophes. Shame on Boeing if the final analysis bears these points out.

The corrective action is simple and within the capabilities of any competent airline captain to execute. Certainly easier than dealing with an engine fire or loss of multiple hydraulic systems.

There is a broad spectrum of abilities in any group of pilots, and without an emphasis training, some of them will be unable to overcome the design deficiency, even if the emergency procedure is simple to carry out. All the lights and buzzers going off will freeze the less capable pilot who has not been trained to drill down to what is going on, and to flip the switch. Training has to be to the lowest level of ability, if you’re operating an airline with any significant number of pilots. They all can't be Sully Sullenbergers.

To me, from the standpoint of an airline pilot, there was no need to ground the fleet. Just ground each and every 737MAX pilot until he or she has been trained on the MCAS.

After two accidents, require a week in the simulator—for overkill to make sure it penetrates even the dimmest bulbs. But nobody flies again until they have it. In effect that grounds the fleet, but only so long as the training takes. At the same time, regulatory bodies can require Boeing to eliminate the design deficiency so that the training on the MCAS need not be so intense, a process that could take months if not years.

But if I were speaking as a non-flying member of the public, and as a politician who must answer to them, I would say: ground the fleet now. As far as the public is concerned, the industry had its chance and blew it. I would have no confidence in the plane nor the industry until an explanation is found and the design changed. Nor would I buy a ticket on such a plane.

Once the public pressure became too great, the grounding of the fleet was inevitable—but not because the plane is unsafe when flown by a properly trained crew. Boeing will pay a price for this, if the final analysis holds these accidents would not have occurred in a 737 model that had no MCAS.

Obviously (as I know from the inbox) other pilots and engineers have a range of views. But I thought this was a particularly lucid description of the relationship between technology and training, and about the difference between views from inside the industry and reactions from outside.Please read on for another message from another airline pilot, which has just come in

I have heard from a person who now flies 737s as a captain for a major U.S. airline, and who has worked over the decades as a crash investigator on projects for NASA, the FAA, and the Air Lines Pilots Association. In those roles, he says, he has “read and analyzed thousands of ASRS reports.” He has a cautionary note about current coverage of the 737 Max.

He begins by referring to some of the ASRS reports I was quoting, including one that is harshly critical of Boeing (and that has been cited in many newspaper reports). This pilot writes:

It seems to me that the media in general has grossly, and frankly irresponsibly, mischaracterized this data.

I believe it is almost certain that the two reports [JF note: among those I quoted] describing a pitch down when the autopilot was engaged are describing the same event; one is from the captain, one from the FO [First Officer — the pilot sitting in the right-hand seat in the cockpit, and with three strips on the epaulet, versus four for the captain]. This is an artifact of the ASRS de-identification structure [i.e., removing personally identifying info from the reports].

In any event, MCAS is not supposed to be operative with the autopilot engaged. Further, when MCAS operates, it will move the pitch trim wheel. Neither report discusses any unwanted trim motion. Ergo, this does not represent an actual MCAS malfunction. It would actually have been useful to know whether this crew made any maintenance logbook entries about this incident.

The report discussing the auto throttle malfunction also has no bearing on MCAS; there is no relationship between them.

I could go on at length about my concurrence with the report discussing Boeing’s failure to include the MCAS material in the [flight manual]; however, that report also does not represent an actual MCAS malfunction. Ditto for the first officer who felt unprepared.

There was an additional report included in the original package put out by various media outlets, which you did not include. I assume that’s because you have done your own homework … This one described an intermediate level off at FL 340 when they had been cleared to FL 360; this occurred because the crew had failed to update the FMC [Flight Management Computer] with the new cruise altitude. Everybody has done that at one time or another. This, too, has no bearing on the MCAS problem.

It has been enormously distressing for me to see material such as these ASRS reports used as proof that there was some kind of hidden problem being covered up by the powers that be. That may still be true (I rather doubt it, but in the accident investigation world, rule no. 1 is never fall in love with your pet theory). We have a real problem here, and its resolution will require accurate, careful and probably very technical analysis. The media firestorm has created a very difficult atmosphere within which to do that work.

At this point, the principal problem we face in resolving the issue lies in defining the criteria we will use to return the Max to flight status. Unlike the previous groundings of the DC-10, ATR, Concorde and 787, the Max was grounded without any clear technical understanding.

As such, there is no clear technical path to follow in order to restore it to flying. If the Ethiopian accident does indeed mirror the Lion Air case (which I also consider very unlikely, but…) then that path will be clear but very, very painful and arduous.

If, on the other hand, the two are not related, then we will have to develop a technical rationale for returning the aircraft to flight with not one, but two unrelated and still open accident investigations. We are really in uncharted territory….

For example, if, as Simon Hradecky has reported on his Aviation Herald website, the Ethiopian crew encountered an unreliable airspeed situation, then a poor handling of that condition could have actually triggered a genuine, proper operation of the MCAS. The presence of that data point in the DFDR data [Digital Flight Data Recorder, roughly approximating “the black box”] will muddy the waters almost impossibly for the media, politicians, and certainly for Trump. And yet it would represent a scenario very different from what we know so far about Lion Air.

I’ll add that while this has been going on, we also have an open investigation into the Atlas 767 crash at Houston. [This was a cargo flight crash, near Houston, last month that killed the three crew members aboard. But it was in a type of plane, a Boeing 767, also used by airlines.]

In that case, we know that some manner of elevator deflection led to a pitch down to 49˚. There are plenty of 767’s still flying passengers, so this, too, is a very critical investigation. Yet, as far as I can tell, the NY Times has not run a single story on this that has not been authored by either Reuters or the AP. [JF note: The Washington Post has also mainly run AP coverage; the Wall Street Journal has had some storiesby its own staff.] This is incredibly disturbing, as it strongly suggests a primary interest in body count and sensationalism, as opposed to genuine public interest.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Victory
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 339
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Victory » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:58 am

Are any of the Airbus narrow bodies ETOPS certified? Or is it just 777, 787, 767, 330 now that can do Hawaii (and St. Johns to London)? Can Rouge 767's be switched to Hawaii and narrowbody Airbus cover their South America flying?
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by TheStig » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:27 am

Great article Fanblade.

The two ETOPS A319's that previously operated YYT/YHZ-LHR were transferred to rouge. No Rouge Airbus pilots are ETOPS qualified but that's not to say that they couldn't be.

All options are being looked at because of the uncertainty involving just how long the MAX fleet will be grounded. It's hard to even describe just how much effort goes into fleet planning, heavy maintenance, lease renewals and retirements, staffing, crew training, vacation alotments, gate space, route planning; everything is you can imagine has its foundations planned a year or more in advance. The entire business revolves around a set fleet and now in a matter of days everything needs to be reworked and for who knows how long? Remember, AC isn't just grounding 24 airplanes, but 36(?) that were planned to be in the fleet this summer.

The 777 and 787 fleets have been picking up lots of the slack. All non-essential maintenance such as WIFI installation can be deferred. The rouge 767 fleet should be able to carry more load after spring break. EMJ's and A320's can stay longer than planned, RRA joining the rouge fleet probably wont do any regional flying (this would be outside of the scope language however..) It will be interesting to see how this situation is managed in the mid-term over the next few months leading up to and through the summer.
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:06 am

One thing I believe would make managing this 747 grounding much easier is fleet/crew consistency.

ie. RRA/LCC/Mainline fleet and pilots all being one. Particularly the 320 fleet. But 767 too...

More crews available to work on more fins with more flexibility.

We have ETOPs qualified crews? oh, but the fins are at Rouge... we have an LCC fin that can fly in YVR? but the crew dutied out and went to the hotel, and there are only mainline pilots there... we had to bump passengers off a packed flight to get crews in place... etc. etc.

Economies of scale... flexibility... all lost with this company imposed divide.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Laser Tilt
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:15 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Laser Tilt » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:01 am

What are the implications of pilots remaining current on type with a long grounding. Let's say is 8 weeks, does that mean even if the aircraft is cleared the pilots need some sim time, etc. before they are allowed back in the air?
---------- ADS -----------
  

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:49 am

My understanding is everyone will be going through additional training anyway... but sure if that addresses currency issues that arise also or not... I guess it depends how long this goes on.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gino Under
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by Gino Under » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:02 pm

Anyone doubting the B767 stabilizer concerns should read through the FAAs ADs on it. The read should give you pause. After all, Prime was simply the loss of a cargo plane. Judging by the media coverage, no one seems to be interested? That also tells us a lot about pilot focus and attention when it comes to safety and how we defend a particular bias.

Boeing has some huge problem$$$. The least of which is the B767 Air Tanker issues and associated financial losses. This is what happens when you are too lazy to clean sheet a new single aisle passenger aeroplane??? You stretch an old one. You strap on new engines. Modify the wings, stabilizers. Whatever's needed to beat or kill the market competition. It's all about market share and $ale$.
But what happens the day you go too far in a world of self-regulation and oversight?
Those poor decisions have potential issues.

It's going to be interesting to listen to Boeing rationalize their decisions over these next few months.
Pretty simple solution. The MAX should have been grounded last Sunday, and the USAF could be flying the A330 Tanker by now.

Gino Under
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”