Who will represent us?

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Will you vote ACPA or ALPA in the upcoming merger?

ALPA
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47%
ACPA
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53%
 
Total votes: 59

160tonoaha
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Who will represent us?

Post by 160tonoaha » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Who will represent us when this pilot group finally goes to the union representation vote? ACPA, or ALPA?

What are some of our pain points with ACPA and ALPA right now?
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:04 am

160tonoaha wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:10 pm
Who will represent us when this pilot group finally goes to the union representation vote? ACPA, or ALPA?

What are some of our pain points with ACPA and ALPA right now?
If you go ALPA, you have the negotiating power and funds of 35 or so airlines.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:45 am

Yeah..they sure helped WestJet get a good contract :roll:
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Kaykay
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Kaykay » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:19 pm

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:45 am
Yeah..they sure helped WestJet get a good contract :roll:
Nice troll. Regardless of which union you have, who you place on your negotiating committee is key.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Completely agree. I don’t think ALPA is the answer or any better than ACPA.
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Goldencondor
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Goldencondor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:29 pm

[/quote]

Nice troll. Regardless of which union you have, who you place on your negotiating committee is key.
[/quote]

+1
It’s all about our will/constituents/committees.
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'97 Tercel
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:13 pm

So why does it matter whether it's ACPA or ALPA then?
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FL-280
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by FL-280 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm

if it's ALPA, then TS get's doh for sure. So on that basis its a no from me dawg
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Hangry
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Hangry » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:32 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm
if it's ALPA, then TS get's doh for sure. So on that basis its a no from me dawg
That. Also we’ve all seen the “amazing” job ALPA did with WJ backing down at the absolute worst time.

Also ALPA endorsing the Gazette 2 which isn’t nearly where it should be.

F ALPA.

ACPA isn’t perfect, but ACPA all the way.
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bcflyer
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by bcflyer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:27 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm
if it's ALPA, then TS get's doh for sure. So on that basis its a no from me dawg
Why do you say that? It’s a misconception that ALPA says it has to be date of hire.
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Blue42
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Blue42 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:59 pm

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:45 am
Yeah..they sure helped WestJet get a good contract :roll:
But we get to wear lanyards now.....and sit in airports for hours at a time.... :lol:
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:18 am

I'm actually quite surprised the WJ negotiations didn't result in job action. I know it was close, but didn't happen.
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Hudson
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Hudson » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:58 am

Alpa couldn't help Georgian's MEC get a contract done. And they set the doh precedent by giving doh to the GGN pilots going to Jazz.
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TSAM
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by TSAM » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:27 am

FL-280 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:26 pm
if it's ALPA, then TS get's doh for sure. So on that basis its a no from me dawg
Through the many pages on here and discussions with you're colleagues, you know DOH isn't & can't happen right? So troll harder perhaps?
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rudder
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by rudder » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:33 am

Hudson wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:58 am
Alpa couldn't help Georgian's MEC get a contract done. And they set the doh precedent by giving doh to the GGN pilots going to Jazz.
Trying to compare the bargaining dynamic for a CPA pilot group vs legacy pilot group is a false pretence. A CPA pilot group has little or no work ownership rights (scope).

As for DOH for GGN pilots who transfer to Jazz - that was a Jazz pilot group decision, not ALPA.
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Hudson
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Hudson » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:29 am

Youre right, you can't compare the dynamics of GGN contract negotiations to Air Canada's.
That's not what I was trying to do. GGN pilots voted alpa in thinking their size meant strength and that it would make contract negotiations a piece of cake. They were wrong. GGN pilots tried to negotiate a new contract for years under ALPA and it never happened

Technically the pilots in all unions are the ones making the decisions...so ok.

There's no way GGN pilots would have gotten doh at Jazz if they weren't with Alpa.

Imo if Air Canada goes with ALPA there's a much greater possibility that Transat pilots come in with doh.
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rudder
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by rudder » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 am

Hudson wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:29 am

Imo if Air Canada goes with ALPA there's a much greater possibility that Transat pilots come in with doh.
Due to the CDN merger, the AC list is not DOH based.

Therefore, DOH integration is not a possible solution.

Lastly, DOH is not even referenced in the ALPA Merger Policy (only ‘longevity’ as a factor to be considered, amongst other factors with no specific weight given to any of the factors).
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Fanblade
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Fanblade » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:35 am

No matter who is certified to represent the integrated group, ACPA will continue to represent AC pilots on seniority and ALPA will continue to represent Transat pilots on seniority.

Who represents who on the seniority file is already set in stone.

The precedents that will impact the integration already set in stone.

It will probably be an arbitration and he/she will not care what any of us have in our contract or what policy we might prefer for integration.

The representation vote should not be clouded by seniority, as representation won’t change the seniority integration outcome.

The representation vote should be about one thing and one thing only. Who do you think will best represent AC pilots moving forward.

Clouding the representation vote with seniority means one of two things.

1) You don’t understand the process.

2) You do understand the process, but want to leverage fear to sway a vote.
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Puffpuffpass
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Puffpuffpass » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:01 pm

You guys who think DOH is not an option are out to lunch....it is very much an option.......there will be fences, most likely grouped in with Rouge for several years before being allowed to move mainline.... but still integrated into same pilot list, and most likely DOH. Also all TS crew or at least 90% are showing widebody, either Capt. or F/O. So that will come into play as well.....yet silence from our side......as usual happy to give away what is ours.
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Mr. North
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Mr. North » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:24 am

Puffpuffpass wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:01 pm
You guys who think DOH is not an option are out to lunch....it is very much an option.......there will be fences, most likely grouped in with Rouge for several years before being allowed to move mainline.... but still integrated into same pilot list, and most likely DOH. Also all TS crew or at least 90% are showing widebody, either Capt. or F/O. So that will come into play as well.....yet silence from our side......as usual happy to give away what is ours.
What would you have ACPA say that they haven't already? The fact is NO ONE knows what the corp plans to do with the AT group. Until they shed some light on their plans what do you expect the union to do?
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Fanblade
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Fanblade » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:09 am

Puffpuffpass wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:01 pm
You guys who think DOH is not an option are out to lunch....it is very much an option.......
It’s been repeatedly explained why DOH isn’t an option. Even in this thread. The AC seniority list is not DOH because of a previous merger. It can no longer be integrated with another group in that manor.
Puffpuffpass wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:01 pm

Also all TS crew or at least 90% are showing widebody, either Capt. or F/O. So that will come into play as well.....
That statement is very likely far more relevant. Likes with likes is a precedent. Group WB CA with WB CA. NB FO with NB FO.

The question in my mind is simply this. In terms of likes with likes, what is the matching group? Does a Transat 330CA match with a AC 330 CA? Or a Rouge 767 CA?

That is where the battle lines will probably get drawn in arbitration if it goes there. From experience, trying to predict what an arbitrator will do, a person who really won’t understand the impact of seniority, is a fools game.

Flipping a coin is just as predictable.

The best option is to sit down and figure it out ourselves. If we don’t, and everything comes off the rails? Look in the mirror to place blame.

But again, seniority integration and representation are two separate issues. This was supposed to be a thread on representation. Allowing the seniority question to cloud the representation question should be avoided.
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bcflyer
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by bcflyer » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:28 pm

The problem with likes and likes is that it’s comparing apples and oranges. 330CA is 5-6 yrs or so at AT, while it’s about 20yrs at AC. Hardly like to like.
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Hangry
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Hangry » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:51 pm

Can’t compare the wage either.
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Fanblade
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Fanblade » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:04 pm

bcflyer wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:28 pm
The problem with likes and likes is that it’s comparing apples and oranges. 330CA is 5-6 yrs or so at AT, while it’s about 20yrs at AC. Hardly like to like.
That is why I wrote this.

The question in my mind is simply this. In terms of likes with likes, what is the matching group? Does a Transat 330CA match with a AC 330 CA? Or a Rouge 767 CA?


But again I wouldn't even try to guess how an arbitrator would view it as Transat also has 20plus year 330 CA. They also fly both the 330 and 321. If seperated 5-6 years is really to the left seat of a 321 which is comparable to AC.

He/she may view us as very very similar. Just match the real 330 positions at Transat with the 330 positions at AC. Match the real 321 positions at Transat with the NB at mainline.

It would be a huge mistake to under estimate just how similar an arbitrator may view the two groups

Wasn't this supposed to be about representation.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Fanblade
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Re: Who will represent us?

Post by Fanblade » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:05 pm

Hangry wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:51 pm
Can’t compare the wage either.
Irrelevant to the question of integration. At least it was for the last merger.
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