Pilot mobility agreement

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radio
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Pilot mobility agreement

Post by radio » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:52 am

Hi everyone,

I’m looking for some clarification concerning the pilot mobility agreement. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com was recently updated for AC and Jazz and it specifies that 80% of ground school spot will be from Jazz. Is this referring to the pilot mobility list (PML) or is it a new agreement between both airlines?

Is that 80% from all AC express carriers or just Jazz?
Is this agreement is a direct Flow Through or a guaranteed interview?
If I understand correctly, you would have to wait that all fellow pilots with lower seniority number to leave for AC before your turn would come up?

What happens with the 20% of class spots remaining, OTS only ?

Just looking to make a clear decision before applying to AC express carriers.
Thanks everyone for your time, and have a nice day!
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aV1aTOr
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by aV1aTOr » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:56 am

Some good questions, but may I suggest you repost this in the Jazz forum as well. You may have a better chance of up to date and accurate info from sources there since many mainline browsers here know little of current recruiting processes nevermind specifics of the Jazz pml.
All the best in the hunt!
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skypirate88
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by skypirate88 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:47 pm

If you were to join us at Jazz, you would not be eligible for the existing mobility agreement. Only pilots on the property prior to the latest contract have access to that. I have heard talks that a new agreement may be announced end of 2016 for all the new folks on the property. It sounds like the 80% will be maintained, but split up among the other express carriers as well, proportionate to the number of pilots each company has. That would leave the 20% OTS intact. Again, this is only what I have heard and may be inaccurate.

If the new agreement resembles the last one, it is just an interview, not a guaranteed job. It would also be in order of seniority.

I have also heard that the Sky Regional and Georgian have deals already in place but can't comment on the truth of that.

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rudder
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by rudder » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:19 pm

It is guaranteed interview only. The processing of Jazz PMLv1.0 applicants is nearly complete. There has been no guidance on the timing or details of PMLv2.0 but it is supposed to be in place in time to fill a percentage of new hire vacancies once the PMLv1.0 list has been exhausted. Currently, Jazz pilots fill 80% of the AC new hire vacancies and SKY/GGN/EVAS pilots are getting positions via the 20% OTS slots. That will change in PMLv2.0 which will encompass all of the AC Express pilots.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by co-joe » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:53 pm

Wow rudder, so there is literally zero OTS hiring for AC outside of their feeder carriers?

So 80% of spots come from Jazz, and Jazz pilots that signed up for the PML 1.0 get a guaranteed interview, and presumably AC just keeps interviewing until they have enough candidates to fill 80% of the open ground school spots?
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PROC_HDG
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by PROC_HDG » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:35 pm

co-joe wrote:Wow rudder, so there is literally zero OTS hiring for AC outside of their feeder carriers?

So 80% of spots come from Jazz, and Jazz pilots that signed up for the PML 1.0 get a guaranteed interview, and presumably AC just keeps interviewing until they have enough candidates to fill 80% of the open ground school spots?
My understanding is that the average class of 20 right now is 80% Jazz, 10 percent other Express and 10% OTS. Sky Regional and Georgian pilots are also being called in order of seniority, though it seems as though the rejection rate is much higher (80%+). At Sky, they have already called pilots around the middle of the seniority list, and guys are getting course dates who have been at the company around 2 years exactly.

PROC_HDG
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lazyeight
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by lazyeight » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:41 pm

Anyone at Express carriers other than Jazz who says they have a PML in place is lying. It does not exist. At this moment Jazz is the only company with a PML. I've heard of Sky and GGN using the lure of a PML to attract pilots to their company... this is false and while in the future there may be a PML at this moment there is not.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by Maxpwr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:46 am

lazyeight wrote:Anyone at Express carriers other than Jazz who says they have a PML in place is lying. It does not exist. At this moment Jazz is the only company with a PML. I've heard of Sky and GGN using the lure of a PML to attract pilots to their company... this is false and while in the future there may be a PML at this moment there is not.
Get your panties untwisted man. There is a PML of sorts at the other Express carriers. They are being taken in order of seniority. And if you didn't put your name forward for the first go then you have to wait until they go through their entire list before they start back at the top again. Sure sounds like an organized PML to me. What's your issue?
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by fruitloops » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:34 am

lazyeight wrote:Anyone at Express carriers other than Jazz who says they have a PML in place is lying. It does not exist. At this moment Jazz is the only company with a PML. I've heard of Sky and GGN using the lure of a PML to attract pilots to their company... this is false and while in the future there may be a PML at this moment there is not.
Yeah you don't know squat - I know several pilots from SKY and GGN that are now at AC Mainline via their SKY and GGN PMLs and the AC interviews and GS start dates are being handed out left center and right
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by Kosiw » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:50 am

What is the AC interview failure rate for those GGN, Jazz and SKY pilots looking to move up ? All we keep reading about here is those that made it...what are the numbers for those that don't get hired on at AC from these regionals ?

Managers for both probably don't want that type of info getting out, cause it will cause many to pause before deciding to join a regional if the chances of getting to AC are not as realistic as many are lead to believe...then what ?
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by teacher » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:06 pm

lazyeight wrote:Anyone at Express carriers other than Jazz who says they have a PML in place is lying. It does not exist. At this moment Jazz is the only company with a PML. I've heard of Sky and GGN using the lure of a PML to attract pilots to their company... this is false and while in the future there may be a PML at this moment there is not.
A PML by any other name (or no name at all and just a sheet of paper) is still a PML. There isn't the same benefits of the Jazz PML 1.0 but it is still preferential hiring via SKY and GGN. HOWEVER instead of calling it a PML they are being hired into the courses along with Jazz pilots taking up what AC calls OTS spaces. Therefore the OTS pilots are coming from SKY and GGN on an unofficial PML and not ACTUALLY OTS.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by Inverted2 » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:57 am

Kosiw wrote:What is the AC interview failure rate for those GGN, Jazz and SKY pilots looking to move up ? All we keep reading about here is those that made it...what are the numbers for those that don't get hired on at AC from these regionals ?

Managers for both probably don't want that type of info getting out, cause it will cause many to pause before deciding to join a regional if the chances of getting to AC are not as realistic as many are lead to believe...then what ?
Jazz is about a 30% PFO rate I am told.
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Duke p
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by Duke p » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:38 am

That would explain why some guys are still scowling at us.

Puzzles me why they thought the average AC pilot had anything to do with it...... :?

DP.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by Fanblade » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:36 pm

Duke p wrote:That would explain why some guys are still scowling at us.

Puzzles me why they thought the average AC pilot had anything to do with it...... :?

DP.
Yeah I agree.

ACPA, not wanting to interfere and create a backlash, left the PML to ALPA Jazz to negotiate for themselves. I get that.

I have now flown with a few Jazz flow throughs and am told their negotiating committee didn't negotiate the PML.

In the end Jazz and AC management just dictated it because Jazz ALPA either wouldn't negotiate it, or weren't able to come to terms.

Not sure which. Rudder? Perhaps it's neither. But an explanation would be nice.

Did ALPA Jazz fail? Did ACPA fail? Was the situation unresolvable?

But I agree. To have the PFO list so large could have, and should have, been corrected. I mean it's been an obvious issue for years. Why it wasn't dealt with is beyond me.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by BingBong » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:57 am

My understanding of the whole thing is the PML was negotiated solely btw AC and Jazz management (which is why they were at our roadshow) and ACPA was involved with AC and Jazz management for the deferral process/reserved seniority numbers.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by lazyeight » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:46 am

teacher wrote:
lazyeight wrote:
A PML by any other name (or no name at all and just a sheet of paper) is still a PML. There isn't the same benefits of the Jazz PML 1.0 but it is still preferential hiring via SKY and GGN. HOWEVER instead of calling it a PML they are being hired into the courses along with Jazz pilots taking up what AC calls OTS spaces. Therefore the OTS pilots are coming from SKY and GGN on an unofficial PML and not ACTUALLY OTS.
If they are taken through OTS spaces, is it really a PML? Call it what you want but Jazz is the only company with a dedicated hiring percentage to mainline right now.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by altiplano » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:06 am

My understanding is ACPA's only involvement was in response to the deferred courses & seniority #'s and ensuring the OTS guys got the same benefit. Everything equal when you got an offer of employment no matter where you come from.

If it is 30% PFO rate from Jazz, that is pretty low I'd say - my impression is it has historically been significantly higher... also considering some of those may be trying again after previously failing which may make your chances slim depending on why you didn't get through the first time...

As for the other regionals having/not having a PML... call it what you want, but they are pilots on a list to get an interview at AC... bottom line... and Jazz won't get that percent forever... once the number is reached and enough of the higher earners are out of Jazz they will slow down.
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by Art Garfunkel » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:40 am

The Jazz PML was/is all about $$$$. I think it pains some Air Canada types that this deal exists. It was/is a good deal for the Jazz pilots who were facing a concessionary contract negotiation with Jazz management and Air Canada. It moved the pilot list immensely and that benefits everyone including the people that had to start at the lower pay scale. (still no reason to be in a concessionary contract position had ALL pilots had our $hit together)

I can't comment on the GGN so called PML but I know Sky's PML was all about dangling the carrot in front of pilots to stop them from moving over to the vacation companies. They used the same terminology that was granted to the Jazz pilots but far from the same. Sure, all pilots were granted "an interview" but a 20 minute phone call is far from "an interview". They should of been honest and fortright to just say, "Seneca, Sault and university grads need only apply". Now we have experienced jet pilots teaching Seneca grads how to fly a jet in airline operations only to see the grads move on in two years or less leaving the experienced pilots to teach the next wave. All Sky captains should get line-indoc pay because that is what this place has become. Sky is a Seneca/Sault jet training school.

Just another example of conquer and divide tactics by airline managements

IMHO

Art
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by atphat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:27 am

Jazz pilots are going BOTL. To be honest I don't think the average AC pilot gives it any thought.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by gtanorth » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:53 am

Art Garfunkel wrote:The Jazz PML was/is all about $$$$. I think it pains some Air Canada types that this deal exists. It was/is a good deal for the Jazz pilots who were facing a concessionary contract negotiation with Jazz management and Air Canada. It moved the pilot list immensely and that benefits everyone including the people that had to start at the lower pay scale. (still no reason to be in a concessionary contract position had ALL pilots had our $hit together)

I can't comment on the GGN so called PML but I know Sky's PML was all about dangling the carrot in front of pilots to stop them from moving over to the vacation companies. They used the same terminology that was granted to the Jazz pilots but far from the same. Sure, all pilots were granted "an interview" but a 20 minute phone call is far from "an interview". They should of been honest and fortright to just say, "Seneca, Sault and university grads need only apply". Now we have experienced jet pilots teaching Seneca grads how to fly a jet in airline operations only to see the grads move on in two years or less leaving the experienced pilots to teach the next wave. All Sky captains should get line-indoc pay because that is what this place has become. Sky is a Seneca/Sault jet training school.

Just another example of conquer and divide tactics by airline managements

IMHO

Art

The same hiring criteria apply to all applicants - Jazz, Sky, GGN, OTS. They are hiring the best candidate "in their opinion".
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by teacher » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:34 am

atphat wrote:Jazz pilots are going BOTL. To be honest I don't think the average AC pilot gives it any thought.
:up: This should have happened decades ago. Everyone I've flown with and spoken to at mainline feels the same why, good for us, good for them.
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Re: Pilot Mobility Agreement

Post by dannyjet » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:48 pm

Thanks for the information shared.

What would be the most likely path to get hired by AC if I've had so far a career flying abroad?

Just like the OP, I always wondered where the other 20% came from but considering what has been posted here, that 20% OTS apparently refers to pilots flying for other regionals/companies in Canada that just aren't in the PML agreement. Is this how it really is?

I turned 30 not long ago and have logged +5000 hours jet time in narrow and wide bodies, all SIC though. At some point I would like to try to make the move to AC but it's difficult to guess when/how. Applying to a regional might seem like a downgrade in my case but if what was posted here is true, then that would be the only way to get in a career path at AC.

Also, am I correct in assuming that, based on the fact of the same FO salary for the first four years regardless of equipment (as shown on APC), once hired you can be assigned to any of the aircraft they have, depending on your experience and their need at that moment?

So in the case I "qualify" as an OTS candidate, which in my case is more like OTC (go figure) and have plenty of say B777 time, would AC most likely assigned me to that type for the first four years?

Thank you.
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Re: Pilot mobility agreement

Post by fish4life » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:18 pm

777 is very senior and would never be assigned to a new hire as far as I know. You are given your type in the initial course and it is irrelevant as to what you came off of flying. Regionals will probably be your only hope since you have no PIC time and the OTS will be very competitive with guys that have some.
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Re: Pilot Mobility Agreement

Post by Ex99guy » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:48 pm

dannyjet wrote:
So in the case I "qualify" as an OTS candidate, which in my case is more like OTC (go figure) and have plenty of say B777 time, would AC most likely assigned me to that type for the first four years?

Thank you.

So what did you pay for that type rating Dannyjet? Hardly believe this is a hypothetical.
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Re: Pilot Mobility Agreement

Post by dannyjet » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:24 pm

@fish4life, thank you for the quick answer. This is what I thought too. So in the case OTS also means candidates that are in a situation like mine, it seems the best idea would be to stay abroad and wait for command to get PIC time in order to be competitive enough. Then, switch to AC accepting a position as a FO and its corresponding (lower) salary in a, most likely, narrow body. Hum.

@Ex99guy, I've paid with years of service, naturally. I don't agree paying money for a rating either.
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