Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

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'97 Tercel
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by '97 Tercel »

atphat wrote:
Mart wrote:Why does pilot think bigger is better?
Because like it or not that’s where the best pay and lifestyle lies, especially with time. Maybe I’m getting older but all I care about are really two things. 1. How much do I make. 2. How much time do I need to spend at work to get it.
Having fun at work “hands and feet” style is just so unimportant to me. But I’m probably the minorty. Give me the most boring flights ever when I get to work and I’ll be happy.
To each their own.

That's true - at some point it shouldn't be what you're doing at work but what you're doing when you're not working.
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watermeth
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by watermeth »

GATRKGA,

you're disappointed, it's normal when one realizes he made a bad decision. However you should refrain from putting the blame on other people's luck. You don't know what they've done, what they went through or how they performed.

since the beginning of this pml concept with jazz and the SR creation and this 'carrot flow through thing' and the encore-poop-show I refrained from applying to those places knowing it was a sucker move right off the bat. Did I find my career was lagging behind sometimes ? of course yes. Did I acquire a valuable experience by sticking to my current employer and logging time that would put me first in line to interview for this airline job ? I guess so.

you won't change the world and the way it evolves. just change your goals. so many people didn't have the opportunity to make it to this coveted flying-for-a-living seat.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by rookiepilot »

Happened to stumble across this, as I'm a serial reader while watching the World Series. Close game.

Anyway just wanted to express to you guys....you have my empathy and understanding for the difficult cesspool it seems the industry is. A lot of stress, I read here. We outside, have no idea. Must diminish the joy of flying for some. I am sorry for this, and if I haven't come across that way.

I'm not in the industry, it was never my cup of tea, just fly for myself, run a small business so definitely a capitalist --- but I absolutely HATE on a bigger picture basis how all big private industry -- not just yours --- does everything possible, in many cases quite nasty, to maximize profits and executive bonuses. Setting employees against each other. Contract employees, no benefits. Uberization of employees. Automation. It's ugly.

It's gone way too far. And it is really hard for the younger generation to get their house in order, get a house, all that stuff. Standards of living are going down.

Anyway wanted to share. Good luck to all.
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Mart
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Mart »

'97 Tercel wrote:
atphat wrote:
Mart wrote:Why does pilot think bigger is better?
Because like it or not that’s where the best pay and lifestyle lies, especially with time. Maybe I’m getting older but all I care about are really two things. 1. How much do I make. 2. How much time do I need to spend at work to get it.
Having fun at work “hands and feet” style is just so unimportant to me. But I’m probably the minorty. Give me the most boring flights ever when I get to work and I’ll be happy.
To each their own.

That's true - at some point it shouldn't be what you're doing at work but what you're doing when you're not working.
Sorry guys but I don’t believe you.
Like it or not as an employee you will spend 1/2 of your life working. So there is not enough money in the world to make me do something boring or something I don’t like for half of my life. That as been proven numerous times also in the past by social science and psychologist. You just can’t, it’s just to darn depressing. So cut the crap, the reality is you have to enjoy what your doing at some point to keep going. Of course I’d rather be home with my family everyday and having a millions dollars to spend every month doing so but unless your self employed or a CEO that won’t happen. The reality is that it’s a seniority base system and it’s not perfect. Good for you if you have above average days off and pay but for those little gains that you make, many of us as too loose.

So stop selling yourself for cheap. Go to the regional if you like the lifestyle and if it’s an improvement from your current position. Same apply for AC go for it if it’s an improvement from your current position and you like the lifestyle otherwise stay where you are and let the other bend over for nothing. And if your really looking for good money forget about Canadian airlines, there is way much more out there. And enjoy YOUR life not the one you think you could have had if you followed someone else path.
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atphat
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Don’t believe me then. Lol
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rudder
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by rudder »

a. job security

b. lifestyle/schedule

c. income

d. retirement income

e. airplane/destinations

Put these 5 items in order of personal priority and then see what job/career opportunity best meets your individual list factoring in that no aviation fact will remain static in perpetuity. The order of priority differs from pilot to pilot. A B1900 will never pay what a B777 does but a B777 pilot cannot sleep in their own bed every night.

The pilots that I enjoy flying with the most are the ones that are happy where they are or happy where they are going. There are more opportunities for commercial pilots in Canada than there have been since the 1960’s/1970’s. That means that nobody has to stay at a bad flying job.
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altiplano
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

Sorry "mart", but you're wrong. For most of the pilots I know cash and time off are the primary motivators.

If they paid me $1,000,000 a year and a pension to lick stamps 1 week a month I would quit flying in a heartbeat. I mean, I like flying well enough, for a job, but I have other stuff I like a lot more... It's a job, and I try to make the best of it.

rudder had the order about right for me.

lifestyle/schedule over income gets a bit blurry I suppose.

For me, schedule can take a hit to a point, to get the income... but it's only to a point... I'm not bidding to the bottom of anything, I'm not waiting to be #1 either though...
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by powerbrian »

altiplano wrote:Sorry "mart", but you're wrong. For most of the pilots I know cash and time off are the primary motivators.

If they paid me $1,000,000 a year and a pension to lick stamps 1 week a month I would quit flying in a heartbeat. I mean, I like flying well enough, for a job, but I have other stuff I like a lot more... It's a job, and I try to make the best of it.

rudder had the order about right for me.

lifestyle/schedule over income gets a bit blurry I suppose.

For me, schedule can take a hit to a point, to get the income... but it's only to a point... I'm not bidding to the bottom of anything, I'm not waiting to be #1 either though...

+1

200k and I will take that stamp licking job.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

powerbrian wrote: 200k and I will take that stamp licking job.
You must be an express pilot...

LOL...
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by pilotbzh »

altiplano wrote:
powerbrian wrote: 200k and I will take that stamp licking job.
You must be an express pilot...

LOL...

I make about that flying the E190 at mainline, How much does a express guys does on the 175 ?
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

Let's not forget the wonderful element of...

Schadenfreude

Where would our careers and, particularly, this thread be without it!?
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

I don't think schadenfreude is accurate.

I think most I know would agree, when we hear how little guys are willing to do the work for, or how much they are willing to work we just shake our heads... it brings us all down.

I want to see everyone in our profession do well.
A flooding tide rises all boats...

If you only feel good because you're looking down on someone, you're looking the wrong direction... you need to look to where you want to go and when you get there look to improve it.

I'm not simply satisfied to say that my contract is better than someone's... that comparison is a losers game.

I'm looking up, ie. at US airline contracts and that's the direction I want to bring my contract.

I don't resent US pilots for doing better than my contract, just like I don't resent people for getting hired younger than and being senior to me with less experience... or going to a better job... if you start resenting someone doing better you're going to have a lot of resent built up, because there is ALWAYS someone doing better.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Ah_yeah »

altiplano wrote:I don't think schadenfreude is accurate.

I think most I know would agree, when we hear how little guys are willing to do the work for, or how much they are willing to work we just shake our heads... it brings us all down.

I want to see everyone in our profession do well.
A flooding tide rises all boats...

If you only feel good because you're looking down on someone, you're looking the wrong direction... you need to look to where you want to go and when you get there look to improve it.

I'm not simply satisfied to say that my contract is better than someone's... that comparison is a losers game.

I'm looking up, ie. at US airline contracts and that's the direction I want to bring my contract.

I don't resent US pilots for doing better than my contract, just like I don't resent people for getting hired younger than and being senior to me with less experience... or going to a better job... if you start resenting someone doing better you're going to have a lot of resent built up, because there is ALWAYS someone doing better.
It's sort of the "Canadian way" though. In the US, people are inspired from those that have "more" to reach higher goals for themselves. In Canada, it's engrained to simply "take" from those that have what you want. The difference may seem subtle but it's palpable. You've got the right outlook IMO but you're in the minority. Without getting too political, we elected a PM who implied every middle of the road family lives paycheque to paycheque because we don't "take" enough from every doctor, lawyer or airline captain. Nobody every says, "you want that ? work for it".
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Ah_yeah »

Ah_yeah wrote:
altiplano wrote:I don't think schadenfreude is accurate.

I think most I know would agree, when we hear how little guys are willing to do the work for, or how much they are willing to work we just shake our heads... it brings us all down.

I want to see everyone in our profession do well.
A flooding tide rises all boats...

If you only feel good because you're looking down on someone, you're looking the wrong direction... you need to look to where you want to go and when you get there look to improve it.

I'm not simply satisfied to say that my contract is better than someone's... that comparison is a losers game.

I'm looking up, ie. at US airline contracts and that's the direction I want to bring my contract.

I don't resent US pilots for doing better than my contract, just like I don't resent people for getting hired younger than and being senior to me with less experience... or going to a better job... if you start resenting someone doing better you're going to have a lot of resent built up, because there is ALWAYS someone doing better.
It's sort of the "Canadian way" though. In the US, people are inspired from those that have "more" to reach higher goals for themselves. In Canada, it's engrained to simply "take" from those that have what you want. The difference may seem subtle but it's palpable. You've got the right outlook IMO but you're in the minority. Without getting too political, we elected a PM who implied every middle of the road family lives paycheque to paycheque because we don't "take" enough from every doctor, lawyer or airline captain. In Canada, few people say, "you want that ? work for it".

It feels like our Canadian sense of entitlement is alive and well in this profession but he truth is, while AC is a good gig, there are plenty of ways these days to have a rewarding career as a pilot.
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altiplano
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

I hear you.

Crabs in a bucket I suppose.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Rockie »

I went crosseyed at the "who's better us or them" argument halfway through page 2 of the thread so I apologize if this has already been said. My impression of the memo opening up hiring from outside the PML is simply a matter of numbers...the express companies just cannot provide what AC needs without damaging their ability to carry out their business and Air Canada either figured that out themselves or were explicity told. The PML exists still I believe.

While there will inevitably be pilots who regard themselves as superior based on who they work for they are the exception.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by confusedalot »

He he he he........

Four pages...which I did not read yet, but I will.

Did two shots at two different feeders because of circumstance (read other non big red operator bankruptcies) and was always regarded as inferior, so stay tuned...nothing earth shattering mind you, but I will clearly point out the inequities.

But hey, this old guy out of the business would have chosen Wardair, CP Air, Nordair, PWA, EPA or Quebecair (guess I am not the brightest around) if I had the choice, so no personal issues are involved.

See ya later, going to watch the rest of the Ghengis Khan documentary now. My dime store exposé may happen in a few days.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by confusedalot »

GATRKGA wrote:I'd like to generate a genuine discussion about how most of you guys see and/or feel about the present setup at big red.

It's the sentiment of many of us at Express, be it at Jazz, GGN, Sky, etc that the responsibility involved with performing our jobs are no different than that of a mainline pilot. If we all wear the same uniform (less wings/hat), operate on the Air Canada network, represent Air Canada in all of our customer dealings, etc; should there ever be a screw up, accident, mishap representing the "company" morbidly, it all would reflect and impact negatively on the mother ship's image. On the contrary, if we embraced good customer service, took the time to help passengers out at the Airport find their gate and baggage claim, yet again, Air Canada would get the "awesome customer service" award. Heck our grooming and uniform standards guide even refers to us as "Air Canada Brand Ambassadors" representing Air Canada. Indicating that obviously, express pilot's are "worthy" enough to represent the mother ship, but possibly not good enough to work for it after some time spent at Express...

I understand and agree that Air Canada is entitled to hiring whomever, whenever, and however they like. And all of us go into express knowing this. But it still leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth when you woke up on Monday morning seeing that "Air Canada is pleased to accept applications from all NON Air Canada Express pilots."

I am seriously looking for a genuine discussion related to the matter; as I think emotions are pretty churned up at express regarding this very topic. And the usual come back from anyone on the fat, dumb, and happy side is "suck it up butter cup, AC can do what ever they want and you knew this going in." Or "shame on you for being entitled" ... :rolleyes:

Yet I was on the train the other day, and the "my shit don't stink, very much entitled" attitude from this young kid wearing his AC uniform really cut through me; I've never been spoken to so condescendingly as I was by this 20 some year old. Clearly he has never seen the route most of us have seen to get where we are, and the respect didn't even seem to exist for another fellow "Air Canada Ambassador" just making an honest days pay asking him how his day was going... Likely he had a degree, and worked really hard in college. Unlike most of us who were so lazy washing our muddy king airs after a 14 hour duty day.

Thanks and good night.
Now in my retirement I am a bit ticked off, could not help but look at least to the OP.

OP, you are right with the attitude thing, have encountered it myself.

Now let me tell you a story about only ONE of many great catches that were flat out refused.

Degree in pure Physics, 737 NG F/O then Captain, turned down. And a gentleman.

Aw hell, here is another, Cathay 744 first officer, pilot and AME licence, one of the smartest guys I have ever met, and did full flight simulator approvals. Turned down. Another gentleman.

And I can go on and on and on. There are so many.

Hired. A few thousand hours in GA, maybe 2K? if that, High School only, I don't give a shit about anything or anybody attitude.

Go figure. I can't.

There are alot of good people at big red, but their system is far, far, from perfect. And far from being as objective as they advertise.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by TGale »

Confusedalot... it sounds like you are "cleaning out your closet" as you transition to a life of retirement. Nothing like a good purge to move on to more positive pasture.

I assume you have never been on a hiring board. Qualifications do not necessarily make a good pilot, as you have off-handedly pointed out. Anyone can be an A-hole. The joy of minding your own life will quickly overwhelm any will feelings you have towards other peoples problems. Happy retirement...
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'97 Tercel
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by '97 Tercel »

Anyone can be an A-hole.
You don't say
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