Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

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JBI
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by JBI »

daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...

Again ... The American pilot market is doing much better with true flow-through on most regionals as well as commuting policies, hotels, signing bonuses, retention bonuses...etc
Well, sort of. I completely agree that with the 1500 hour rule combined with the absolute crap pay the US regionals were paying previously, US regionals are now hurting for pilots and offering much better pay and signing bonuses.

However, right now only American Airlines wholly owned regionals PSA, Piedmont and Envoy have a true, no interview, flow. However, estimates are 5 years to 10 years before you actually get to mainline AA and you go Bottom of the list. Also, American mainline flies the 190 and Envoy flies the 175.

Delta only offers a PML like interview for Endeavor and United offers a PML like interview for ExpressJet, CommutAir and Air Wisconsin. However, both of these programs only offer an interview after a certain amount of time as CAPTAIN. The difference between the PML and these programs is that it is possible for someone at these airlines to still get hired Off the Street, so essentially they get to skip the line.

As for the original topic, I try to take a pragmatic approach to things. Airlines will try and staff their operations in an efficient and effective manner just as pilots will try and find the right job that they enjoy and that will provide them with the best lifestyle/quality of life. I would hope that regardless of the livery on the outside of the aircraft, pilots will always do their best to act professionally, safely and provide good customer service (yes, you provide customer service). Never take a job SOLELY based on a carrot being dangled, but that carrot definitely should be a factor. But have your options open if that carrot is no longer available.

Honest question, what are guys at Express carriers who got the "No thanks" from AC doing. Are they staying at the Express carriers or moving on to something else? If enough people leave the Express carriers after getting the AC PFO, you'd probably see changes in how the Express recruitment works. Thing is, Captain at Jazz is still a pretty decent job. I can't fault a guy for staying their long term.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Rupert_Pupkin »

JBI wrote:
daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...

Again ... The American pilot market is doing much better with true flow-through on most regionals as well as commuting policies, hotels, signing bonuses, retention bonuses...etc
Well, sort of. I completely agree that with the 1500 hour rule combined with the absolute crap pay the US regionals were paying previously, US regionals are now hurting for pilots and offering much better pay and signing bonuses.

However, right now only American Airlines wholly owned regionals PSA, Piedmont and Envoy have a true, no interview, flow. However, estimates are 5 years to 10 years before you actually get to mainline AA and you go Bottom of the list. Also, American mainline flies the 190 and Envoy flies the 175.

Delta only offers a PML like interview for Endeavor and United offers a PML like interview for ExpressJet, CommutAir and Air Wisconsin. However, both of these programs only offer an interview after a certain amount of time as CAPTAIN. The difference between the PML and these programs is that it is possible for someone at these airlines to still get hired Off the Street, so essentially they get to skip the line.

As for the original topic, I try to take a pragmatic approach to things. Airlines will try and staff their operations in an efficient and effective manner just as pilots will try and find the right job that they enjoy and that will provide them with the best lifestyle/quality of life. I would hope that regardless of the livery on the outside of the aircraft, pilots will always do their best to act professionally, safely and provide good customer service (yes, you provide customer service). Never take a job SOLELY based on a carrot being dangled, but that carrot definitely should be a factor. But have your options open if that carrot is no longer available.

Honest question, what are guys at Express carriers who got the "No thanks" from AC doing. Are they staying at the Express carriers or moving on to something else? If enough people leave the Express carriers after getting the AC PFO, you'd probably see changes in how the Express recruitment works. Thing is, Captain at Jazz is still a pretty decent job. I can't fault a guy for staying their long term.
I got PFO'd about 6 months ago from AC from 2.0. Been at Jazz for 2 years going RJ captain in January. When I got rejected I instantly wanted to quit and wanted nothing to do with the AC express brand. Once I started to look at other jobs, I soon realized how much seniority I'd be giving up after just 2 years (600 people under me). The pissed off person in me was ready to quit but the logical person in me made me stay. I'll be a captain at jazz for the next 20 + years but I am in no way proud to fly a plane with a maple leaf on it.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by digits_ »

Rupert_Pupkin wrote: I got PFO'd about 6 months ago from AC from 2.0. Been at Jazz for 2 years going RJ captain in January. When I got rejected I instantly wanted to quit and wanted nothing to do with the AC express brand. Once I started to look at other jobs, I soon realized how much seniority I'd be giving up after just 2 years (600 people under me). The pissed off person in me was ready to quit but the logical person in me made me stay. I'll be a captain at jazz for the next 20 + years but I am in no way proud to fly a plane with a maple leaf on it.
That's one way of retaining motivated employees :shock:

Thanks for sharing though, it certainly is an interesting point of view.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by HansDietrich »

I can see jealousy eating a lot of the Jazz guys alive! Yes, that's a fact. The hatred toward those that made it to AC by the ones that didn't is unreal. One only needs to listen to some of the discussions around the crew room or the shitty lounge!

You came to Jazz to work for Jazz, not Air Canada. If they hire you, great. If they don't, you still have a job at Jazz and you can wear the Maple Leaf on your tunic buttons.

As someone here said: "Calm Air ATR captains are way more qualified to join AC than a Jazz F/O flying a Dash 8 classic".

What I don't agree with is AC's idiotic rule to hire mostly pilots with degrees. As if a degree in General Arts makes you a better pilot. I have a degree (thankfully in something worth while, not something that will let me be "drive through manager" at Tim Hortons). So does this degree make me a better pilot? F*ck no! Did it make it easier to study / pass my sim ride? F*ck no!

I really see no point in making "degrees" a relevant point in hiring at AC. If anything it disqualifies excellent pilots from ever joining mainline.

But if I were to be a selfish prick, l could just say "oh well, better get that online degree from Phoenix University! You'll be a 777 RP in no time"
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by WF9F »

You are not an Air Canada Pilot/Employee until you are hired and working at Air Canada.
Next thing, when you do get hired at AC you will want your seniority from when you started at the connector...we already saw that show!!
Every company is different , it doesn't make you an AC Pilot/Employee because you call STOC taxing in to YYZ or YUL!!

And your topic title sucks, there is NO AC Pilots vs. Express Pilots or any other Pilot group for that matter.
Guys and Gals here are the same as Guy and Gals and any other flying company, they are just trying to make a living.

Pretty stupid of anyone if they didn't get hired at AC to be pissed at the pilot group, I didn't do your interview you moron!! :D
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by daedalusx »

Sad thing is everyone here has a valid point, on both side of the aisle.

OF course a lot of post 2015 Jazz guys are bitter and envious, wouldn't you, if you'd quit a nice 703/4/5 job because it was made clear that the way to mainline is through express then get pfoed for lack of degree when you have 4000/5000+ hrs with mpic and turbine and now stuck on the B Scale, especially when your interview was based on the original A scale then bait and switched on the offer.

In an era of unprecedented growth and forecast of movement due to retirements, one would hope that the pilots group would unify to improve everyone's T+C instead of this current crab bucket mentality of 'If I can't have it then neither should you' or 'why should I bleed for the unborn'
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by HansDietrich »

WF9F wrote:You are not an Air Canada Pilot/Employee until you are hired and working at Air Canada.
Next thing, when you do get hired at AC you will want your seniority from when you started at the connector...we already saw that show!!
Every company is different , it doesn't make you an AC Pilot/Employee because you call STOC taxing in to YYZ or YUL!!

And your topic title sucks, there is NO AC Pilots vs. Express Pilots or any other Pilot group for that matter.
Guys and Gals here are the same as Guy and Gals and any other flying company, they are just trying to make a living.

Pretty stupid of anyone if they didn't get hired at AC to be pissed at the pilot group, I didn't do your interview you moron!! :D
Well said!
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Rupert_Pupkin »

HansDietrich wrote:I can see jealousy eating a lot of the Jazz guys alive! Yes, that's a fact. The hatred toward those that made it to AC by the ones that didn't is unreal. One only needs to listen to some of the discussions around the crew room or the shitty lounge!

You came to Jazz to work for Jazz, not Air Canada. If they hire you, great. If they don't, you still have a job at Jazz and you can wear the Maple Leaf on your tunic buttons.

As someone here said: "Calm Air ATR captains are way more qualified to join AC than a Jazz F/O flying a Dash 8 classic".

What I don't agree with is AC's idiotic rule to hire mostly pilots with degrees. As if a degree in General Arts makes you a better pilot. I have a degree (thankfully in something worth while, not something that will let me be "drive through manager" at Tim Hortons). So does this degree make me a better pilot? F*ck no! Did it make it easier to study / pass my sim ride? F*ck no!

I really see no point in making "degrees" a relevant point in hiring at AC. If anything it disqualifies excellent pilots from ever joining mainline.

But if I were to be a selfish prick, l could just say "oh well, better get that online degree from Phoenix University! You'll be a 777 RP in no time"
I think the "jealousy" stems from people trying to figure out why some were chosen over others. Say someone like myself 4500 hours, jet time, command time, perfect training record. Then you see people that came from college, got their pic from PICUS, no real command time get chosen. I'm not griping but I think a lot of people who, in their own opinion, paid there dues flying wise and felt they deserved the job over people who were lucky enough to coast through their careers so far without almost dying 7 times.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by HansDietrich »

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:I think the "jealousy" stems from people trying to figure out why some were chosen over others. Say someone like myself 4500 hours, jet time, command time, perfect training record. Then you see people that came from college, got their pic from PICUS, no real command time get chosen. I'm not griping but I think a lot of people who, in their own opinion, paid there dues flying wise and felt they deserved the job over people who were lucky enough to coast through their careers so far without almost dying 7 times.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I paid my dues as well, freezing my ass off, putting on engine tents in -40*C, and flying 14 hour duty days, falling asleep on approach. If that only impressed those who hire at AC. We are an old school breed, my friend. We're no longer being looked at as "Oh wow, this guys knows his shit". Most of these young kids straight out of college and into an RJ at Jazz say "Oh, how stupid were those old fellas to fly up North for 3 years...."
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by JBI »

Rupert_Pupkin wrote:

I got PFO'd about 6 months ago from AC from 2.0. Been at Jazz for 2 years going RJ captain in January. When I got rejected I instantly wanted to quit and wanted nothing to do with the AC express brand. Once I started to look at other jobs, I soon realized how much seniority I'd be giving up after just 2 years (600 people under me). The pissed off person in me was ready to quit but the logical person in me made me stay. I'll be a captain at jazz for the next 20 + years but I am in no way proud to fly a plane with a maple leaf on it.
Thanks for the answer. What would it take for you to consider another option? (i.e. Transat, Sunwing, DEC at Encore etc.) I'm assuming right now the pay and working conditions would be a step down, but is there anything in particular, that improved, would get you to move?

Don't get me wrong, I think you're still in a great position which offers good benefits, schedule and pay. I just think as there continues to be growth in the industry and a shortage of skilled guys, I wonder what other carriers should be trying to do to recruit the experienced Express guys who, given the right motivation, would be happy to move on from AC.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by mbav8r »

daedalusx wrote:I'm still confused how operating a 175 for Sky is any different from operating a 190 for mainline...
Nobody addressed the most obvious and divisive issue, about 50% of the pay for year 1 Captain to close to 60% less later on.

I work for Jazz, who’s biggest customer is Air Canada, I don’t work for Air Canada, however I used to work for AC much like the Aeroplan employees used to or the Heavy maintenance guys did. I hope I don’t suffer the same fate as a result of the divestiture.
Anyhow that’s history and I can certainly feel the current pain of the Aeroplan employees uncertainty of their future, now that Air Canada is starting a new reward program, which will eventually be sold, rinse, repeat.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by mbav8r »

Sharklasers wrote:Things are going in the right direction with the prospect of repatriating regional flying to the mainline like they are doing in the States.
There will be less terrible regional jobs and more mainline jobs for whoever Air Canada choose to hire.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Maybe if the RRA(repatriation) wasn’t at reduced wages, the tide is not rising as much as you imply.
This was another chess move by CR while ACPA was still playing checkers, reality was with a lack of pilots at Express, up gauging was inevitable, you gave it to them on a silver platter.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Just can’t stop giving.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Dockjock »

Cannot believe people are griping about the requirement for a university degree or college diploma. It's been like that since at least the 1970s. Not to put too fine a point on in but this career involves a fair amount of reading the requirements and expectations, and then following them exactly.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by atphat »

Dockjock wrote:Cannot believe people are griping about the requirement for a university degree or college diploma. It's been like that since at least the 1970s. Not to put too fine a point on in but this career involves a fair amount of reading the requirements and expectations, and then following them exactly.
I agree it has been this way for quite some time. There could be a million reasons why someone does not have a degree or diploma. All of them having nothing to do with their ability to fly an airplane professionally, and having the ability to read and follow requirements and expectations.
Probably a topic for another thread though.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by goingnowherefast »

daedalusx wrote:Sad thing is everyone here has a valid point, on both side of the aisle.

OF course a lot of post 2015 Jazz guys are bitter and envious, wouldn't you, if you'd quit a nice 703/4/5 job because it was made clear that the way to mainline is through express then get pfoed for lack of degree when you have 4000/5000+ hrs with mpic and turbine and now stuck on the B Scale, especially when your interview was based on the original A scale then bait and switched on the offer.

In an era of unprecedented growth and forecast of movement due to retirements, one would hope that the pilots group would unify to improve everyone's T+C instead of this current crab bucket mentality of 'If I can't have it then neither should you' or 'why should I bleed for the unborn'
Jazz is still riding on their pre-2015 reputation, not the current trend of degrading slowly into a stepping stone. Plus everyone was told "if you want to work for AC, you have to go to Jazz(Express)". It was almost as if the guarantee was implied. We all know there is no guarantee, but we are all allowed to believe it. Now PFOs are becoming more common, OTS hiring has reopened and the Jazz B scale pilots are even more bitter. After all, many of them took a substantial pay cut and were told that the short term pain meant long term gain once at AC.

Personally, I have avoided the whole mess. I just feel for my friends who are living it. Some are quitting before even getting the PFO because the whole process disgusts them.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by Dockjock »

atphat wrote:
Dockjock wrote:Cannot believe people are griping about the requirement for a university degree or college diploma. It's been like that since at least the 1970s. Not to put too fine a point on in but this career involves a fair amount of reading the requirements and expectations, and then following them exactly.
I agree it has been this way for quite some time. There could be a million reasons why someone does not have a degree or diploma. All of them having nothing to do with their ability to fly an airplane professionally, and having the ability to read and follow requirements and expectations.
Probably a topic for another thread though.
The requirements are on the website. Haven’t changed in decades.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by altiplano »

mbav8r wrote:
Sharklasers wrote:Things are going in the right direction with the prospect of repatriating regional flying to the mainline like they are doing in the States.
There will be less terrible regional jobs and more mainline jobs for whoever Air Canada choose to hire.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Maybe if the RRA(repatriation) wasn’t at reduced wages, the tide is not rising as much as you imply.
This was another chess move by CR while ACPA was still playing checkers, reality was with a lack of pilots at Express, up gauging was inevitable, you gave it to them on a silver platter.
You got that right. What a mistake - I can't believe people thought to B-scale ourselves as a gain, when we would have got it at full pop.

To be accurate regarding education:
AC doesn't require a degree or diploma, you just have to be damn sharp without one and exceed all the other points:
- lots of diverse experience
- flight time, command time, big airplanes
- test and interview well

Nobody owes you anything, whatever your background, education, experience...

Sometimes everyone looks and wonders why that guy didn't get hired and that guy did... you can't explain it and it's not personal... it just is what it is...

Didn't get hired? Keep trying or go have a cry... learn to accept it and you will be happier...
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by GATRKGA »

I legitimately see everyone's point of view.

Now here's my point of view.

As for the people who say "what about CargoJet guys, why aren't they entitled to a job with AC" ... or "does flying a B1900 guarantee you a job at Beechcraft" etc, I think you're missing something with that opinion. If it weren't for the divisive mandate of Air Canada, all of these jobs would have been mainline jobs, and all of us would have been employed by mainline to do the jobs.

I also don't see how being good enough to "represent" Air Canada means that you may somehow not be a good "fit" for Air Canada. Call a spade a spade, you're either good enough to wear that uniform, or you're not. And no, it's not because the uniform automatically makes you entitled to a job at AC; it's because it is the same job, painted in a second class citizen format to give Calin and his minions an upper edge on their bonuses and weekly golf trips. Don't fool yourselves. The setup is absolutely unacceptable, and anyone falling for it now, knowing how terrible of a setup this is, should seriously consider other avenues. Jazz is NOT the pre-2015 place. As well, with a younger demographic, just watch how the next TA will be voted in favor of the Air Canada colored stick at the expense of a long term, hard earned sets of terms and conditions from the Jazz predecessors. Just to backfire when the young kid sees that he can't get to AC quick enough, and sees his option to put up with second class treatment at express as unacceptable in an ever moving industry.

Also, why many are bitter about the whole thing you say? It is because 99.9% of us who applied to Express were as a result of this misleading email when we applied OTS in March 2016. Yea yea, many didn't go to express, and decided to stick it out on the outside. But when the mothership herself claims that you are encouraged to Apply to express, they are implying that you should go here if you want to work for "Air Canada." Where you will be privy to "representing" us with the hopes of MAYBE being worthy to have "Air Canada" written on your pay cheque.
Hello,

Thank you for submitting your application to the Pilot posting at Air Canada.

The Pilot selection process is extremely competitive and has resulted in over 1000 applications received from highly qualified pilot applicants. We have notified those that we expect to interview in the next 12 months. Your resume will remain in our system and we may be in touch with you in the future. However, we encourage you to consider applying to one of our Air Canada Express partners: Jazz Aviation LP, Air Georgian, Sky Regional Airlines, or Exploits Valley Air Services, as we expect to continue hiring from these companies as well.

Sincerely,


The Recruitment Team

Replies to this message are undeliverable and will not reach the Recruitment Department. Please do not reply.
Why on earth would ANYONE apply to a b scale express job, to stay there? Clearly it's because Air Canada themselves encouraged us to do it, so that we could be deemed "worthy" to one day work for big red. And now they have the audacity to be pleased to accept applications from all non Air Canada express pilots? Yea no, won't fly. And not because of an entitlement issue. It's due to the issue that the thousands that have gone to express in the last 2 years, have sacrificed a lot; to their foolishness today, to find out that it was basically for nothing. Yes there's no guarantees in life, but this type of "encouragement" moves the herd. All you'd need to see from Air Canada today is, "We will no longer be taking applications from Outside, and encourage all parties interested to work for Air Canada, to consider applying to Express." While the physical application to express would be the "fault" of the pilot himself, just watch how the "encouragement" would fill up express with resume's like you wouldn't believe. Including from all those superior 704/705 Captains such as Calm Air ATR Captain's... :rolleyes: So don't be standing there pointing fingers at Express pilot's saying that Air Canada had nothing to do with why many of us ended up at Express. That's extremely cowardly to even insinuate.

What AC doesn't realize is with them planning to take the Encore's, Jetlines, and Flair pilot's, is that their express brand will be emptied. Just about anyone I speak with right now has applications in at Encore - to get to AC or to go overseas. Since Q400 PIC time is now considered acceptable. Possibly a good strategic move to repatriate regional flying on AC's part; there won't be anyone left to work for express. What a kick to the mid-section for all of us who fell for Air Canada's "encouragement" to come and work for these types of outfits. Boy did we get played, and played well.

All I can think of when I see this disgusting setup at Air Canada is, Hunger Games. Divide and Conquer. Eventually it will bite them. The one thing an old mindset based company such as Air Canada doesn't realize, is that the replacement for these so called baby-boomers, comes from millennials. And say what you want to say about them (entitled, attitude issues, etc), they will not put up with nonsense long term. This is a different breed of "youth" which the baby-boomers cannot relate to. Their youth and attitudes are very different than the present day 65 year old who reminiscences about their youth. While a dream today, just about anyone would cross the border and fly if it opened up. While it's not an option today, what does that tell you about the state of affairs in our own industry? It certainly seems to indicate that it's garbage. You can only put so much make up on a 100 year old grand-ma. Millennials bring their issues, but they are also some of the smartest and most efficient breed of human kind at the moment. And airlines all around the world will be happy to scoop them up after they've been ran through the toiletry of Canadian aviation.

Just watch... it won't be pretty.
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Re: Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

Post by DH772 »

I also don't see how being good enough to "represent" Air Canada means that you may somehow not be a good "fit" for Air Canada. Call a spade a, you're either good enough to wear that uniform, or you're not.
No, no you are not.
If you are working at an express carrier, you are wearing a similar uniform working for a company that works for Air Canada. You do not work at Air Canada. Period.

You may be bitter about the situation of being "lured" to the express carriers but this does not change the fact that you aren't entitled to an AC job anymore than an OTS pilot. You're advantage is guaranteeing an interview for yourself someday.
It sucks being PFO'd, but the reality is people will continue being PFO'd at both the express and OTS level for reasons we'll never know.
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