Express Pilots VS Mainline Pilots

[Air.Field]

To the OP, the only reason that boy talked down to you is because you allowed it. Have a spine. Additionally, to everyone. AC is not the mecca of aviation in Canada. Far from it. The only reason to go there is $ long term. Soo many issues I don't know where to begin, a divided pilot group, and frankly the holier than thou attitudes from many AC pilots is nauseating. It's the same at most airlines, so pick your poison.

[atphat]

AC is not the mecca of aviation in Canada.

AC is hardly perfect but I strongly disagree. For many, many reasons.

[Eric Janson]

Millennials bring their issues, but they are also some of the smartest and most efficient breed of human kind at the moment. And airlines all around the world will be happy to scoop them up after they've been ran through the toiletry of Canadian aviation.

You're joking right?

watch... it won't be pretty

I dread the day that Millenials invade my flight deck - it certainly won't be pretty!

[aerosexual]

Everyone is a lot better off when they realize:

1. No one owes you ANYTHING

2. The only person who's responsible for your results is you

Sounds like the OP hasn't learned that...

One of the "virtues" of millennials that the OP forgot to mention

[PROC_HDG]

This millennial hating drivel is so tired. 1500 retirements at AC in the next 10 years. Guess what, pretty soon most of the airline will be staffed by millennials. Take your blood pressure medication and STFU already.

PROC_HDG

[fish4life]

I think one of the biggest differences is the millennials have zero loyalty to the airline they work for, it is yet to be seen but I personally think that will be good for wages. AC was divided by "Canadian" and "Air Canada" guys after the merger and even before they hated each other a lot. Most millennials are willing to jump ship to a job that offers better conditions and they don't care if it means leaving WJ for AC or Jazz for WJ. I also don't see any of this "hate on the competition" with most younger pilots, most seem to want both airlines in Canada to do well because they have friends at the competition and they realize that 2 healthy airlines is better for pilots in general.

[Sharklasers]

How did this become a millennial thing?
Millennials are not the 6 million dollar man, like any other demographic we have good ones and bad ones.

[GATRKGA]

It’s interesting to see the replies.

That email wasn’t mine. I had that from several friends who got it in 2016. I was involved with express before.

I’ve been at SR enough to have paid my dues. When you start seeing my FOs who interviewed after me get seniority numbers ahead of myself and many like myself, it means the system is flawed. Again, not because I’m owed something. Rather because AC is taking people and express is releasing people out of seniority. Indicating that the system doesn’t work.

Can someoe tell me how it is that someone being in the company 2-3+ years has their interview process on hold while a 2200 hour FO starting not even 1 year ago is already on a 320 course this fall?

There’s no entitlement issue here. Either the process is streamlined and goes in order of seniority, or it doesn’t and people such as myself speak up about it. If mr 1 year seniority got the job after I had my PFO, then that’s something which bodes a seniority based approach. Having my interview, and many others like me on hold while this sort of thing happens is very disgusting.

You come here to go to AC. If you’re not a good fit here, you’re not a good fit at AC. If you’re a good fit here, you’re a good fit at AC. The two jobs and responsibilities are the same. If AC created a proper flow through, this would be a much better system. This “keeping-their-options” open and cherry picking approach, while putting their express brand through the nonsense that is this PML, will create animosity. If you don’t see it, it’s a very ignorant and possibly cowardly perspective.

As for my own options “altiplano,” I’m very aware that I can leave. And no none of us here sees it as having it “good”... we have made many sacrifices to come to a place like this. Most of us here have more than paid our dues in this industry. And are simply being put through this mess due to our date of birth. Had we had our experiences pre express 5 years ago, we’d all be the dash 8 and 1900 captains hired directly into mainline AC. Now seemingly finding out that having left our experienced “calm air 705 pic type jobs” to come to express to get to AC was completely wrong. So please spare me the lecture on “paying your dues.” I respect your perspective altiplano, but I don’t agree at all.

[altiplano]

Whatever.It is what it is.

There are people who I trained right seat for their first job, while I was many years established in my career at my third or fourth company who are senior to me at AC.

There are people that hadn't even graduated high school while I was slogging around in large turboprops who are hundreds of numbers senior to me at AC, 10 or 12+ years younger than me...

Stop comparing your career to others and get this idea of life being "fair" out of your head because:
1. It isn't,
2. Ultimately you have zero control, you can't change it,
3. It will make you bitter/unhappy/etc.

I wasn't making a point on paying dues as much as you're not the first one who had work and work and work and couldn't get a break and didn't know why... If you think you're ticking all the boxes, maybe you're missing on something you can't see if you aren't getting a shot... learn a language, go to night school and get some more post secondary credit... maybe change up your resume format and resubmit it... seriously, I did that... changed the font and format on my resume and got a call a month later for the interview... who knows... work on what you can control... or go back to "Calm Air" or wherever if you think that's better... sounds like all those places are in need of qualified guys...

[Air.Field]

GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.

[Air.Field]

also, altiplano makes a good point, if you have the hard on to get to AC, try a new approach.

[Victory]

Calm Air. The new PML to Air Canada!

[atphat]

GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.

You sound like my bitter ex girlfriend.

[Dark Helmet]

I try to avoid posting here and have not posted for a while. Hard to ignore this topic as I have sat on both sides of the fence.

Truthfully, many pilots are qualified to work at AC. Unfortunately, no one is entitled or deserving of a job at AC. There are more losers then winners (OTS and Express).

Getting hired at AC (whether Express or OTS) is extremely difficult and competitive. Sadly, many that do get hired at AC (the AC pilot GATRKGA dealt with and some posters on this forum) fail to realize and understand this.

The big issue is the lack of career progression predictability when it comes to hiring at AC. For example:

At WJ it is more or less cut and dry. Go to Encore and wait til your # comes up and flow to WJ with your sen#, or if you have more experience you can take your chances and try to go direct to mainline understanding that it will be more competitive. Either way, there are no guarantees but its more predictable.

In the US, at AMR its a straight flow through from certain connecting carriers.

UAL and DAL its a guarantee interview similar to the PML at AC. Unlike AC, at these carriers the majority of pilots actually GET HIRED when interviewed from the connectors. You would have to F*** really bad on the interview or be a very poor employee at the connector not to get hired. Again are there guarantees? NO. Is there any predictability? YES.

Hiring process at AC has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. There are a lot of unwritten requirements. A pilot hired this week may not have stood a chance 5 years ago, or 5 years from now with the same credentials. A pilot PFO last month may have gotten hired no problem 5 years ago etc...

Back in the 90's it was mostly from the connectors. Many qualified OTS pilots had to go and spend 6 months to a year at the connectors before joining AC.

During the 2000's after CCAA many experienced pilots left the north and joined Jazz with expectations of joining AC down the road(like in the 90's). Many were disappointed to find out the the ones joining AC were their former FO's at their old carriers. AC did hire from Jazz but not to the amount that they were in the 90's.

Early 2010' it was a free for all, no PML, no flow-through, if you were at Express you just applied like everyone else. Everyone was treated as OTS. This was the case until PML 1.0.

Once PML 1.0 was announced, the OTS pilots were at a disadvantage. What next? Do you go to express and hope for one of the 80% of the slots or chance it for the 20% available to OTS?

Those OTS pilots that went to express found out the hard way that PML 2.0 was not as robust as PML 1.0. Actually it sounds very similar to post CCAA hiring, So now what?

Now the window for OTS is open again, what happens when it closes? What happens when PML 3.0 comes out, if it comes out? Nobody knows but there will be winners and losers...

Seriously how does one get on with AC:

1. Leave that stable job to go get that jet time from that fly by night operator?
2. Leave that good job from a place you like to live in and move to YYZ to worlk at express?
3. Quit flying and go back to school and get a degree?
4. Offer rum and pray to Jobu like Pedro Cerrano?

Many have tried one or two of those strategies only to find out that they were unsuccessful because the goal posts have changed and npw they needed to explore the other strategy instead. And all they have to go by from others is "you dont deserve a job at AC and no one owes you anything"

Yes getting PFO sucks, it stings it is frustrating and I fully understand that. You are not the first and wont be the last. However, if someone really wants AC hang in there and be patient. The opportunity will present itself again for those that really want it. 500+ vacancies on the last bid.

For my fellow pilots at AC. Please be more gracious and professional towards our Express pilots. You could have gotten PFO just as much as the next guy. Be grateful that your didn't. Even with the RRA provision, AC will still have a connector with a demand for pilots to fly those airplanes.

FWIW movement in the industry right now is unprecedented!!! There are many opportunities for pilots right now that were simply non existent 5-10-15 years ago. However those opportunities would be more beneficial to us pilots if we had real leadership and solitary in our profession...

Anyways rant over.

Best of luck to all

DH

[dhc#]

GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.

^
^
Awesome

[GATRKGA]

I try to avoid posting here and have not posted for a while. Hard to ignore this topic as I have sat on both sides of the fence.

Truthfully, many pilots are qualified to work at AC. Unfortunately, no one is entitled or deserving of a job at AC. There are more losers then winners (OTS and Express).

Getting hired at AC (whether Express or OTS) is extremely difficult and competitive. Sadly, many that do get hired at AC (the AC pilot GATRKGA dealt with and some posters on this forum) fail to realize and understand this.

The big issue is the lack of career progression predictability when it comes to hiring at AC. For example:

At WJ it is more or less cut and dry. Go to Encore and wait til your # comes up and flow to WJ with your sen#, or if you have more experience you can take your chances and try to go direct to mainline understanding that it will be more competitive. Either way, there are no guarantees but its more predictable.

In the US, at AMR its a straight flow through from certain connecting carriers.

UAL and DAL its a guarantee interview similar to the PML at AC. Unlike AC, at these carriers the majority of pilots actually GET HIRED when interviewed from the connectors. You would have to F*** really bad on the interview or be a very poor employee at the connector not to get hired. Again are there guarantees? NO. Is there any predictability? YES.

Hiring process at AC has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. There are a lot of unwritten requirements. A pilot hired this week may not have stood a chance 5 years ago, or 5 years from now with the same credentials. A pilot PFO last month may have gotten hired no problem 5 years ago etc...

Back in the 90's it was mostly from the connectors. Many qualified OTS pilots had to go and spend 6 months to a year at the connectors before joining AC.

During the 2000's after CCAA many experienced pilots left the north and joined Jazz with expectations of joining AC down the road(like in the 90's). Many were disappointed to find out the the ones joining AC were their former FO's at their old carriers. AC did hire from Jazz but not to the amount that they were in the 90's.

Early 2010' it was a free for all, no PML, no flow-through, if you were at Express you just applied like everyone else. Everyone was treated as OTS. This was the case until PML 1.0.

Once PML 1.0 was announced, the OTS pilots were at a disadvantage. What next? Do you go to express and hope for one of the 80% of the slots or chance it for the 20% available to OTS?

Those OTS pilots that went to express found out the hard way that PML 2.0 was not as robust as PML 1.0. Actually it sounds very similar to post CCAA hiring, So now what?

Now the window for OTS is open again, what happens when it closes? What happens when PML 3.0 comes out, if it comes out? Nobody knows but there will be winners and losers...

Seriously how does one get on with AC:

1. Leave that stable job to go get that jet time from that fly by night operator?
2. Leave that good job from a place you like to live in and move to YYZ to worlk at express?
3. Quit flying and go back to school and get a degree?
4. Offer rum and pray to Jobu like Pedro Cerrano?

Many have tried one or two of those strategies only to find out that they were unsuccessful because the goal posts have changed and npw they needed to explore the other strategy instead. And all they have to go by from others is "you dont deserve a job at AC and no one owes you anything"

Yes getting PFO sucks, it stings it is frustrating and I fully understand that. You are not the first and wont be the last. However, if someone really wants AC hang in there and be patient. The opportunity will present itself again for those that really want it. 500+ vacancies on the last bid.

For my fellow pilots at AC. Please be more gracious and professional towards our Express pilots. You could have gotten PFO just as much as the next guy. Be grateful that your didn't. Even with the RRA provision, AC will still have a connector with a demand for pilots to fly those airplanes.

FWIW movement in the industry right now is unprecedented!!! There are many opportunities for pilots right now that were simply non existent 5-10-15 years ago. However those opportunities would be more beneficial to us pilots if we had real leadership and solitary in our profession...

Anyways rant over.

Best of luck to all

DH

Seriously one of THE best posts I've ever seen written on here. Let me guess, you're one of those unsung hero's at mainline that SHOULD be in a leadership position, but probably isn't due to a multitude of reasons. Thank you for such a leadership oriented answer on the matter, and for understanding exactly what it is I, and I'm sure many of my colleagues feel regarding the matter.

GATRKGA, just from your posts that I recall in the past, you've been informative, good natured, and having been at SR for a few years, I would loosely translate that into being a decent pilot. Unfortunately, bad things happen to good people, none more so in aviation. All AC deserves to give you and any express pilot at the moment is just a silly interview. Requirements and questions that have zero bearing on a pilots ability. The hiring system at AC is indeed flawed. Always has been. Like a degree in bull$hit makes one a better pilot. If I was incharge of hiring, I'd base it off experience and skills. That's what makes a good pilot good. Not some f'ing piece of paper in a frame.

A guaranteed flow certainly would be beneficial to AC and express carriers. However, the HR amoeba's that think they are wise gate keepers, ... are to the point doing a $hit job. Don't blame them. They don't know any better. Which in this industry is a shame. The one thing AC is good at doing, is pissing off people, whether customers, or AC and Express employees. They suffered some bad PR in the past, and again are on that road, and that's not including the CBC bias.

I don't know what to tell you, at one point for the longest while I wanted to go to AC. Am I a good pilot? I would say definitely yes, and many personally who know me would agree. I have been in this industry for closing in on 20 yrs. I see many newbies getting ahead. At the beginning, it didn't bother me. It was just all bad luck and career choices. Then it started to bother me, it made going to work suck a$$. And now, once again it doesn't bother me because I don't give a flying F*** about getting into the pants of AC, because as I indicated above, AC isn't that great that many would think/believe. I have friends there, and I know and hear the stories and how their operations are conducted. And in my opinion, it's a lost cause losing sleep to get into that "place". Honestly, I'd much rather drive a friggin dump truck, as AC can suck my balls. And to end on that... going to work feels much better for me with that attitude... YMMV.

Yea... you may be onto something. I just fear thinking like this may actually be a defense mechanism for what you actually want, and bolster further into a depressive mood over time. I don't know for sure, just speculate. But I appreciate that you recognize that I'm not coming from a bad place when I'm speaking up about this. Like you said, I have good intentions and try to be informative regarding anyone trying to join SR. When a company isn't unionized, people don't know what they're getting themselves into. And if information can be given to help people make better, and more educated decisions (unlike many of us who came to express to get on with AC), then I think I've done the little bit of giving back that can be done on an online forum.

On the topic of AC and whether it's a good place, not a good place, etc. I think the truth is that, because it's the best in Canada, the bias tends to over rule towards it being "amazing." When in fact it doesn't come without its issues. From the time I've been involved in the express umbrella, it is the generic opinion of myself and many that they've never seen a company be so more dysfunctional and divisive as Air Canada. This opinion comes from many ex AC, EK, QR, EY, CX, KAL employees who helped establish the likes of SR jet ops. Practices which are common around the industry, appear to AC's operation as rocket science to accomplish. In my time at express as well I have gained the same perspective, that while it would be nice and extremely comfortable if I could get on with mainline, I wouldn't be terribly upset if I didn't get the job either. Because better exists out there. It just requires a move and an exit strategy to come back home which requires diligent planning and research. But not impossible. If done properly, will bode to be a better retirement and life quality than AC as well. Before anyone gets their under wear twisted over "how can this express pilot possibly preach this being a 175 captain" ... I'm lucky to be in a very informed and inclusive network of professionals in this industry, to know very well what I'd be getting myself into be it as an expatriate as opposed to AC. And I won't deny that AC can offer an excellent career as well. It just isn't the only place to do so. And I think as Canadians, we forget this. Largely due to lack of info on the world that exists out there in our industry.

But this thread, SHOULD be an eye opener to anyone at the moment in the process, or thinking about the process of applying to express. The more information you have, the better. Hence why this thread is called Express vs Mainline Pilot's - It gets your attention and gets you to delve into the details that you MUST consider if you're OTS thinking about the express route. I certainly wish I had the info I have today before I came here. Because I wouldn't. I would've stayed where I was and worked towards AC OTS or the expatriate life that was also available to me through my old company.

Thanks for everyone's involvement. I really meant it when I said I wanted a genuine discussion. And all opinions are seriously appreciated, even if it got a bit heated.

[Jimmy2]

My recommendation to not become bitter is to chase salary, not metal.

I've never accepted a low paying job other than my very first FO position. My colleagues that thought they found a shortcut by going to express carriers earned less than half of what I have over the years. I've worked all over the world and seen places most people never get to. I made good money, and had a great time doing it. A pilot's license is a ticket to an interesting and exciting life.

I am now in the hiring process at AC, but if I don't succeed oh well. You guys sound like a PFO is the most devastating thing that could happen to you. I'll go do something else, somewhere more interesting. I won't have to cut my lifestyle for 4 years on AC's flay pay scheme.

You risked a chunk of your income earning years to go work for peanuts in the hope it might get you to AC quicker. Your actions harm our profession and nobody is going to respect that.

So many people get into flying because they could never work a 9 to 5. Yet as soon as they can, they take a job that is the aviation equivalent of one.

[altiplano]

I'll say it again, there is nothing new here... This is what I said about it 2.5 years ago, maybe around the time you were starting at Express.

AC has changed the way it hires and from where many times over the years so any strategizing over which company you do/don't go to will change by the time you may/may not get called by AC.

Depending on where you are in your career and what you've done in general I'd just follow the proven formula of progress... Right seat, left seat, bigger aeroplane repeat, at the best company I could get on with that suited my needs...

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=102652&p=925969&hi ... ge#p925969

An interested observer can easily look back over the years on this forum, or ask about AC's varied hiring trends.

The one constant is that they always change. If you are surprised it hasn't gone the way you wanted, you haven't paid attention and you aren't the first...

[JBI]

I can't believe I'm partially agreeing with Jimmy2!

..I've worked all over the world and seen places most people never get to. I made good money, and had a great time doing it. A pilot's license is a ticket to an interesting and exciting life.

I am now in the hiring process at AC, but if I don't succeed oh well. You guys sound like a PFO is the most devastating thing that could happen to you. I'll go do something else, somewhere more interesting.

Without wanting to sound like a tacky inspirational post on LinkedIn, some of the best adventures and experiences in life came from not getting something I thought I wanted. And in aviation, I can say that the jobs that I wanted the most and "so badly" were the ones that I actually found less rewarding in the long run.

I had a great chat with an AC pilot a few months ago about all the hiring at AC. He had the best quote: "If you're happy where you are now, you'll be happy at AC. If you're unhappy at your current airline, you'll be unhappy at AC"

[sanjet]

.
I had a great chat with an AC pilot a few months ago about all the hiring at AC. He had the best quote: "If you're happy where you are now, you'll be happy at AC. If you're unhappy at your current airline, you'll be unhappy at AC"

Agree, I've seen some people that will never be satisfied no matter where they are.