The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

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Jean-Pierre
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Who let you drive a boeing? You seem absolutely deranged.
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by confusedalot »

He he he....yeah I am one of those former boeing drivers who was always curious about airbus. Never had the pleasure though, only came close, but ended up in boeings because of base preference.
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by Level Change »

I am currently flying the new Max at AC. To compare, I have flown the DC9, Embraer, Airbus, B767 and B777. From a pilots perspective, I prefer the Max to both the Embraer and the Airbus. The Airbus has a bigger cockpit and nicer ergonomics for sure but it was also designed from the get go so that Ziegler's Concierge could fly it. As a result, there is always a computer between the pilot and the airplane. The Boeing/Airbus debate will always be personal preference. They are quite different in philosophy, with one being no better or worse than the other, just different. I admittedly prefer the Boeing however. The Embraer was just a big mistake IMHO, plain and simple. The other night I was flying to YVR in the Max with 169 pax onboard, burning the same amount of fuel as an Embraer with 90 passengers onboard! That is simply, incredible.

Anyone who understands the concept of "Children of the Magenta" will appreciate the Max for being a stick and rudder airplane with an awesome avionics package. The overhead panel is straight out of the 70's with big toggle switches and analogue dials. No ECAM or EICAS, just old fashion caution and warning lights accompanied with a paper bound QRH. The systems are basic, simple and for the most part, seem to make sense. Doing an RNP appraoch in this compared to the Airbus, or even the 777 is night and day. We are set up with GLS, ADS and CPDLC. No RAT however.

It takes forever to start the new Leap engine. Anyone who has flown Garretts will understand the concept of having to spin prop blades after shutdown. The Leap requires the same on start up. It motors for 90 secs to stabilize internal temps before we can add fuel and ignition to the mix. Typically, another 90 secs from light off to start sequence termination. Add another 3 minutes to stabilize temps before applying takeoff thrust and you have 6 minutes from start to ready for takeoff. There may not be as many single engine taxi outs as a result.

Flew in the cabin during a deadhead. Much quieter during the climb out compared to our older Airbus fleet which sounds like it has a couple of Briggs and Strattons out on the pylon rather than a CFM56. I have not flown on the newer 321 at Rouge.

The biggest PIA I see is the bulk hold. Right now it is taking waay too long to load and unload this aircraft compared to the Airbus, which is containerized. The cockpit is small. Perhaps a little too small. I am sure that if you sneeze, you will need to wipe down the windshield. I don't find it any louder than the Airbus or Embraer both of which employ ANR headsets. If I try to compare this Max to anything else I have flown, it would be the DC9. A basic pilots airplane and the DC9 was the most fun to fly of all of them.
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rudder
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by rudder »

The NG and the MAX both have a nice set up for coupled LNAV/VNAV approach because the speed window stays closed and the speed bug resets with each flap selection. Using LPV minimums will mean preferred approaches will be RNAV STAR transition to RNP APP rather than cat 1 ILS.

Having said that, Boeing should have made available an optional EICAS for standalone MAX operators.

Fuel burn on an A321NEO is 25% less than a 757. Sounds like the MAX is offering a comparable fuel burn reduction from the Classic 320 and the NG.
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by altiplano »

Good write up LC!
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yycflyguy
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by yycflyguy »

Level Change wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:19 am


It takes forever to start the new Leap engine. Anyone who has flown Garretts will understand the concept of having to spin prop blades after shutdown. The Leap requires the same on start up. It motors for 90 secs to stabilize internal temps before we can add fuel and ignition to the mix. Typically, another 90 secs from light off to start sequence termination. Add another 3 minutes to stabilize temps before applying takeoff thrust and you have 6 minutes from start to ready for takeoff. There may not be as many single engine taxi outs as a result.
Good!
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by totalflyer »

Level Change wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:19 am It takes forever to start the new Leap engine. Anyone who has flown Garretts will understand the concept of having to spin prop blades after shutdown. The Leap requires the same on start up. It motors for 90 secs to stabilize internal temps before we can add fuel and ignition to the mix. Typically, another 90 secs from light off to start sequence termination. Add another 3 minutes to stabilize temps before applying takeoff thrust and you have 6 minutes from start to ready for takeoff. There may not be as many single engine taxi outs as a result.
This would explain what happened the other day with a WestJet MAX coming out of deicing... they had to by pulled out of line by ATC because they still needed 3 minutes before they could depart and failed to inform them before getting to the holding bay of 06L... sounds like a bit of a pain especially if timing is critical for hold-over times etc.
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rudder
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by rudder »

totalflyer wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:29 am
This would explain what happened the other day with a WestJet MAX coming out of deicing... they had to by pulled out of line by ATC because they still needed 3 minutes before they could depart and failed to inform them before getting to the holding bay of 06L... sounds like a bit of a pain especially if timing is critical for hold-over times etc.
Deicing at YYZ is live spray so engines would already have been running.

There is a delay after spray for bleeds/packs. I think 2-3 minutes. There is also a requirement to do an engine run above idle prior to departure if engine anti-ice was selected on during taxi. Most operators do this in position on runway immediately prior to take off (advance thrust - wait - select TOGA).

Not sure why the WJ MAX would have needed extra time.
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altiplano
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:34 pm
totalflyer wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:29 am
This would explain what happened the other day with a WestJet MAX coming out of deicing... they had to by pulled out of line by ATC because they still needed 3 minutes before they could depart and failed to inform them before getting to the holding bay of 06L... sounds like a bit of a pain especially if timing is critical for hold-over times etc.
Deicing at YYZ is live spray so engines would already have been running.

There is a delay after spray for bleeds/packs. I think 2-3 minutes. There is also a requirement to do an engine run above idle prior to departure if engine anti-ice was selected on during taxi. Most operators do this in position on runway immediately prior to take off (advance thrust - wait - select TOGA).

Not sure why the WJ MAX would have needed extra time.
Maybe they decided to do a single engine taxi to deice? Started the other on the way out and had to wait to get it warmed up?
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by confusedalot »

I did some sim testing work on the max, and yes, you need to motor the engine before fuel introduction until the plane tells you to, which takes quite a bit of time. (something about straightening out the composite alloy engine shaft as I recall) So the actual start sequence is the culprit, not the engine warmup.

So I am guessing that a single engine taxi routine may become impractical depending on how long you have until takeoff? Only after the engine is started can you start the warmup time.
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by fruitloops »

Any plans for some 737s to be based in YVR as well?
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by confusedalot »

Don't you need to be a senior 777 left seater just to live in a basement apartment in YVR? :lol:

I dunno, just making light of the situation.
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by islandguy »

Nothing posted out here yet. I think most suspect it's only a matter of time, but most of us are hoping the eastern boys'll keep the New Shiny to themselves and saddle us with the bulk of the old 320 fleet. We like being left to ourselves ;)
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by aV1aTOr »

islandguy wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:41 am Nothing posted out here yet. I think most suspect it's only a matter of time, but most of us are hoping the eastern boys'll keep the New Shiny to themselves and saddle us with the bulk of the old 320 fleet. We like being left to ourselves ;)
Couldn't have said it better.
"Wow that *ahem* 'new' 737 sure is nice! Why don't you guys keep them all??"
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by Wheels »

Has it come down to direct entry 737 Captains? Or is this just a rumour.
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Gino Under
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by Gino Under »

Interesting comments on the Max.
Just curious as to the number of ‘memory items’ on the MAX?

Isn’t there something missing in this day and age when a supposedly modern, improved aircraft like the MAX is missing a basic EICAS system, like the one found on the B767 and 757? Perhaps it was left out because of ‘common’ type rating issues enjoyed by the FAA and not Transport Canada. I never could figure that out.
…and how advanced is the 777 and 787 ECL? I’d imagine something like that in the MAX would be well received by all MAX pilots.

I remember having to partially stand up to reach the overhead NAV panel to switch the IRSs to NAV. Is it still like that in the MAX? After all these years, imagine still having to do that? Ergonomics wasn’t as well developed in 1964 as it is today so I guess they get a pass.

Flew in the cabin of an Air Canada 787 to Europe last summer. First time on one I might add. That had to be the loudest, longest engine start I ever heard. Only the L1011 came close. But it's nice to know FADEC recognizes rotor bow during an engine start. You'll get used to GTF engines. They'll put an end to single engine taxiing. Watch.

It’s disappointing that Boeing wasn’t willing to update and upgrade the B737 in their rush to market something ‘acceptable’ as a more competitive offering to stave off Airbus and Bombardier. I think it was a bad move by Boeing and judging by the numbers of MAX derivatives sold to date at giveaway pricing, in about 15 years or less, when they will have to deal with greatly depreciated MAX book values, Boeing will have a rather large number of angry customers on their hands. But hey, live for the moment.

Enjoy whatever aircraft you're flying for whatever it is, it's the best. (Keep the blue side up)

Gino Under :partyman:
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by confusedalot »

In case no one noticed, the only reason why a 737max does not have a 777/767/757 sort of cockpit with eicas and all, are because;

Primarily to keep the plane as a single type rating for the likes of Southwest, American, et al...so no initial type rating required. An NG guy gets into a max with about, what, 2 hours of extra ground training? I flew the NG, I did sim acceptance with the max, it's the same airplane as far a a pilot is concerned and every NG pilot out there is comfortable immediately.

Second, the new max investment by Boeing is minimal, once again, same as any other 737 with a bit of lipstick, new engines, etc...
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by altiplano »

What are we complaining about here?

Stretching to reach a switch that you really only put on when you get there and turn off when you leave? (standing up)

A few memory items?

Paper checklists?

So hard done by...
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by Fanblade »

Wheels wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm Has it come down to direct entry 737 Captains? Or is this just a rumour.
Rumour. Not factual
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Re: The attributes of the 737MAX joining the AC fleet?

Post by yycflyguy »

Gino Under wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:01 pm Interesting comments on the Max.
Just curious as to the number of ‘memory items’ on the MAX?

Same number of memory items as the 767. Drills are very similar. No EICAS but Boeing QRHs are all essentially the same. The overhead panel is an abortion and many of the "switches" could have been automated but kept with the 50s technology. Rumours are that the engines are not living up to the performance that Boeing promised and bulk loading bags is absolutely absurd. C'est la vie. C Series come in 2019 :)
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