Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

[Blue Side Up]

I completely agree with you guys. I think the sooner the pilots in Canada are unionized under the same name the better off we'll be. Maybe we'll start putting pressure on our employers to start paying us like the US!

The survey ACPA sent out was very vague and waaaay to wordy.. they could've made it a 10 question survey and got the same results.

Time to hurry up and wait to see what happens.

[teacher]

You only need one question on the survey:

“DO YOU SUPPORT ACPA ENTERING IN TO EXPLORATORY DISCUSSIONS WITH ALPA TO EXAMINE THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OR DRAWBACKS FOR THE AIR CANADA PILOTS OF MERGING ACPA WITH ALPA?”

YES

NO

AGREED, all other questions are not truly relevant.

[altiplano]

MEC newsletter from yesterday urges everyone to speak up to the vaguely worded survey... I think it's because they peaked at the responses to date and don't like what has come in thus far...

It was the same with the recent contract...

Upped the sell job when the Yes vote wasn't looking certain...

I can't remember, but something like 20% of the vote was in the last 24 hours.

[aerodude]

Think about it for a second....
What have you have to lose? Possibly the worst contract for a north american legacy airline.
Also, did they not just allow the expansion of a b-scale ops in one of the airlines most profitable era!?!?
I remember on a webinar where one of the chief acpa negociator refused to call rouge a b-scale operation, incredible...

[Redwine]

I think that would be a fantastic idea!

[confusedalot]

Hate to burst the bubble but I can see that no one knows why there is an ACPA in the first place, perhaps because posters were not in the business at that time.

Air Canada pilots were previously represented by a now defunct union that was CALPA, the Canadian Airline Pilots Association. CALPA represented many airlines of the day, including the now non existant Canadian Airlines, and, in the past, other Airlines that no longer exist or got bought out and merged. They were around for decades.

Air Ontario, and I think Air BC, maybe Air Nova but I am not sure, were also represented by CALPA. These companies are now collectively known as Jazz.

Then..........the fun started.............it was a dirty time..........

The air canada feeders made a push for common carrier status, and CALPA was one of the tools they were using. This is not a joke, they were looking for seniority by date of hire............so for example, a 25 year Air Ontario guy would get 25 years seniority at air canada, skipping over air canada pilots with less seniority.

Like I said before, it was a very dirty time. If you have an imagination, you can see how dirty it got. This stuff was hapenning in the early 90's.

So........the air canada pilots left CALPA and formed ALPA.

That may perhaps indicate why ACPA is not in any hurry to join ALPA, doubt very much that they are interested in watching the movie again.

[yycflyguy]

All of that has been settled in the courts. The Air Ontario lawsuit was dismissed.

Since the dissolution of CALPA, ACPA was a needed change back then. Over time, it has become ineffective (corrupt?) and directionally lost. A common pilot union with common representation is needed again. It's no difference than a government that has been in power for too long. It is time for a change.

[infiniteregulus]

Sounds like WestJet is becoming the new Canadian Airlines, so it could be extrapolated that eventually WestJet and AC could merge in the future, thus if both were to be with ALPA, the same scenario would play out.

[altiplano]

Part of the issue with CALPA, IIRC, was the governance structure. While AC pilots paid the lions share of dues, the governance structure allowed the feeders and small airlines to control the association.

So when Air Ontario and the regionals decided to get date of hire seniority and use the AC pilots' own money and resources against them to achieve that, they walked.

ALPA board, on the other hand, is structured differently.

Every airline with over 4000 members or $10million in dues gets to appoint an EVP to a seat at the table. United, Delta, Fedex...

The smaller/regional airlines are grouped into tiers and select one EVP per tier. The Canadian carriers are grouped and select one EVP...

Air Canada would be very close to that top tier, just shy of 4000, and I'm not sure of dues, but it would be close...

If it is slightly short, perhaps ALPA may be willing to make an exception/amendment to their constitution. I suspect they would have to, as I'm certain many/most AC pilots won't go unless they get a seat in the deal... given the history of feeders wagging the dog and the fact that we are certainly more similar to United than Bearskin or even Jazz as far as structure, equipment, operations, issues, scope, etc...

Hopefully they work it out, I'm ready for ACPA to be put to pasture.

[mbav8r]

Part of the issue with CALPA, IIRC, was the governance structure. While AC pilots paid the lions share of dues, the governance structure allowed the feeders and small airlines to control the association.

So when Air Ontario and the regionals decided to get date of hire seniority and use the AC pilots' own money and resources against them to achieve that, they walked.

ALPA board, on the other hand, is structured differently.

Every airline with over 4000 members or $10million in dues gets to appoint an EVP to a seat at the table. United, Delta, Fedex...

The smaller/regional airlines are grouped into tiers and select one EVP per tier. The Canadian carriers are grouped and select one EVP...

Air Canada would be very close to that top tier, just shy of 4000, and I'm not sure of dues, but it would be close...

If it is slightly short, perhaps ALPA may be willing to make an exception/amendment to their constitution. I suspect they would have to, as I'm certain many/most AC pilots won't go unless they get a seat in the deal... given the history of feeders wagging the dog and the fact that we are certainly more similar to United than Bearskin or even Jazz as far as structure, equipment, operations, issues, scope, etc...

Hopefully they work it out, I'm ready for ACPA to be put to pasture.

Um, pretty sure they walked because the binding arbitration that both sides AGREED to didn’t go their way, the lawsuit was based on that fact, despite not being successful the principal remains.

[citizenbanana]

Happening?

[Rowdy]

From the sounds of it, it looks like thats the direction it's going.

Now... just to have a clean sweep of the ACPA reps..

[3down&loct]

Good luck guys. I hope you guys join. Think it will be positive for the Canadian Airline Industry. Everyone on the same page.

[CanadianEh]

Looks like a done deal

[DropTanks]

.

[Lightchop]

Email/memo went out this morning more or less confirming it.

[yvrflyguy]

Sounds like they got everything they asked for. I assume they'll have to hold a vote for the pilots, but if we get everything we wanted, dont see much reason not to

[Lightchop]

What exactly did the pilot group want? To be part of ALPA but not "actually" part of ALPA? Everyone knows AC only cares about themselves, and not of the collective whole.

[sportingrifle]

Lightchop....that is a pretty interesting comment.

I worked at a connector airline many years ago and experienced ALPA leadership. Trying to be all things to all groups, while in fact letting down their most vulnerable members was sad to watch. Made me think that I wouldn't want to be part of a merger between two ALPA represented airlines. I had an unnerving feeling that my future would be decided in a back room in Hearndon Virginia by a "couple of good ol' boys over a bottle of scotch." ACPA isn't perfect, but at least it is only accountable to one pilot group and if we don't like the way it is being run, we can (and did) vote those in charge out and replace them.

I also just found out that ALPA Canada at the 11th hour decided to support the proposed flight duty time regulation amendments - the proposed regulations that ACPA has been trying to bring about much needed improvements to for many years. If a pilots union can't get that right, what's the point, pretty much everything else is more complex and difficult.

I think I'll vote to stay with ACPA, they haven't done everything perfectly but on balance have done a far better job and are far more accountable than ALPA to date. Just my $0.02.

sportingrifle

[Lightchop]

How about giving all that good cargo flying away for pennies and expanding Rouge more and more. Giving away quality mainline jobs in the process.

What are your thoughts on that? Because a few AC pilots I know aren't thrilled with the way ACPA has been acting the last few years.