You both work for the same team, alot of AC has gone though regional, regional has helped out in times of need, why the bad blood? Can't you all just get along???
Have at er.
Cheers.
Will ACPA and ALPA ever be on good terms?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Will ACPA and ALPA ever be on good terms?
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Did the interview (thought it went well), waiting for the sim (or a PFO), we shall see.
Sober up, I was under the impression that some mainline drivers have when times have been bad, gone down to fill Jazz spots? is this true? heard it on hear I think some time ago.
Anyway, not trying to start a pissing contest about things I don't know much about. There seems to be some bad blood between the 2 companies and I was wondering if it will (or could ever) change.
Cheers.
Sober up, I was under the impression that some mainline drivers have when times have been bad, gone down to fill Jazz spots? is this true? heard it on hear I think some time ago.
Anyway, not trying to start a pissing contest about things I don't know much about. There seems to be some bad blood between the 2 companies and I was wondering if it will (or could ever) change.
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Hey King Air guy, to my knowledge nobody has ever flowed up or down between the companies!
As for the bad blood, I don't think its as bad as people make out! Both sides are just trying to better their own interests and thats just human nature and politics.
There are people on both sides that would love to see the whole thing resolved but others would prefer to keep the status quo so who knows what the future brings!
As for the bad blood, I don't think its as bad as people make out! Both sides are just trying to better their own interests and thats just human nature and politics.
There are people on both sides that would love to see the whole thing resolved but others would prefer to keep the status quo so who knows what the future brings!
Hey sober up, who do you work for? As for implying that Jazz guys never help out, screw you. I was laid off for nearly two years from Jazz to help keep the whole ACE empire running. Now that I'm back I'm still not making what I was before I was laid off. Not only that but now that things are going well I'm being held back from going to the mainline because I'm at Jazz, while CMA and Georgian 1900 drivers are being hired. So please don't spout off this crap about Jazz never helping out.
PS KAG nobody has ever flowed down to Jazz. You'd have to have some kind of common seniority list for that to happen and unfortunately the people that are in positions of power at BOTH airlines aren't interested in that happening.
PS KAG nobody has ever flowed down to Jazz. You'd have to have some kind of common seniority list for that to happen and unfortunately the people that are in positions of power at BOTH airlines aren't interested in that happening.
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twinpratts
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Hey bcflyer we had plenty on layoff as well and I seem to remember your fearless leader trying to steal as much of our flying as possible so if you want to start this kind of banter try to remember the facts!
And as for the CMA and Air Georgian guys maybe it comes down to the fact that they don't spend all their time biting the hand that feeds them!
And as for the CMA and Air Georgian guys maybe it comes down to the fact that they don't spend all their time biting the hand that feeds them!
So, you'to a CMA/georgian guy trying to justify why you deserve to go ot mainline over employees of the same company I gather. Justify away---your attitude will fit in well to the attitude like twinpratts.
Some guys who ACPA screwed want to sue you. Surprise, surprise.
Now, in some perverse logic, you figure it is fair to screw all the guys who had absolutely nothing to do with that, all the while working hard for the maple leaf.
Anyway KAG, it is this kind of stuff that makes the answer to your original question a blunt 'NO'. Maybe some day it will change, along with the Israelis and Palestinians being best buds, and the Irish and the Protestants sharing a pint of guiness. Who knows when any of that will happen.
Just so I don't bring you down too much, Jazz is a good operation, and a good job in its own right.. But once you are there for a while, you either get angry at the ridiculous politics and attitude from some people at the 'mainline', or you get apathetic (probably the better way to go). Either way, you get the understanding for why things are the way they are.
Some guys who ACPA screwed want to sue you. Surprise, surprise.
Now, in some perverse logic, you figure it is fair to screw all the guys who had absolutely nothing to do with that, all the while working hard for the maple leaf.
Anyway KAG, it is this kind of stuff that makes the answer to your original question a blunt 'NO'. Maybe some day it will change, along with the Israelis and Palestinians being best buds, and the Irish and the Protestants sharing a pint of guiness. Who knows when any of that will happen.
Just so I don't bring you down too much, Jazz is a good operation, and a good job in its own right.. But once you are there for a while, you either get angry at the ridiculous politics and attitude from some people at the 'mainline', or you get apathetic (probably the better way to go). Either way, you get the understanding for why things are the way they are.
Hey SU,
I wouldn't say there is any sense of entitlement at Jazz. There are some that are bitter, twisted, apathetic, frustrated, etc, but even then it is only some and not all. But I had really never seen a sense of entitlement in the pilot group (well, maybe the occasional person, like anywhere). But overall, I think that they have become used to any sense of fairness not really meaning anything, so there is no expectation of anything. That to me is entitlement.
I'm not saying there aren't some screwed up viewpoints at Jazz (they often end up in union leadership), but I wouldn't call it entitlement.
I wouldn't say there is any sense of entitlement at Jazz. There are some that are bitter, twisted, apathetic, frustrated, etc, but even then it is only some and not all. But I had really never seen a sense of entitlement in the pilot group (well, maybe the occasional person, like anywhere). But overall, I think that they have become used to any sense of fairness not really meaning anything, so there is no expectation of anything. That to me is entitlement.
I'm not saying there aren't some screwed up viewpoints at Jazz (they often end up in union leadership), but I wouldn't call it entitlement.
I wasn't trying to start the war of words as I have friends at Jazz AC and Wj who are all reasonable people!
The politics of Canadian Aviation will never change! AC thinks JAZZ is stealing our flying you think CMA and Georgian are stealing yours and so on.
Blame management! Drivers should not be trading pot shots at each other and I should not have gotten involved in this post so thats my 2cents and I'm done!
The politics of Canadian Aviation will never change! AC thinks JAZZ is stealing our flying you think CMA and Georgian are stealing yours and so on.
Blame management! Drivers should not be trading pot shots at each other and I should not have gotten involved in this post so thats my 2cents and I'm done!
Last edited by sober up! on Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wow for a new guy on here you sure like to stir things up. I'm well aware that mainline had guys laid off. I know several of them actually. You asked when had Jazz ever helped out. I would think that pay cuts, layoffs, loss of vacation etc etc qualify as "helping out" As for my sense of entitlement, I simply want a fair shot. Judge me on my qualifications and not on the fact that Jazz is short of pilots or that I'm a member of ALPA.
I'm not even going to get started on who screwed who more. Each side had done their fair share of it so please don't try to pin all of the crap on Jazz. Do you remember what AC pilots gave up to make sure Jazz never got RJ's? Jazz has them now but we have to fly them for less money than they did at mainline. The civil lawsuit involves probably less than 10% of the pilots at both airlines yet it seems to be a HUGE stumbling block. Unless we pull our heads out of the sand and get together, things are going to keep going downhill.
KAG please don't let this discourage you from Jazz. At the end of the day its still a good place to work.
I'm not even going to get started on who screwed who more. Each side had done their fair share of it so please don't try to pin all of the crap on Jazz. Do you remember what AC pilots gave up to make sure Jazz never got RJ's? Jazz has them now but we have to fly them for less money than they did at mainline. The civil lawsuit involves probably less than 10% of the pilots at both airlines yet it seems to be a HUGE stumbling block. Unless we pull our heads out of the sand and get together, things are going to keep going downhill.
KAG please don't let this discourage you from Jazz. At the end of the day its still a good place to work.
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bobcaygeon
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Lost in Saigon
- Rank 8
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Air Canada laid off 243 Pilots some time around 1991 or 1992....
A few of these pilots ended up at Air Nova as DH-8 FO's. They went bottom of the list as new hires but were able to commute back to YYZ (or wherever) using their passes as though they were still employed at AC...
I believe it was a "preferential" type hiring plan that CALPA put together for the laid off guys at AC.
A few of these pilots ended up at Air Nova as DH-8 FO's. They went bottom of the list as new hires but were able to commute back to YYZ (or wherever) using their passes as though they were still employed at AC...
I believe it was a "preferential" type hiring plan that CALPA put together for the laid off guys at AC.
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
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- Location: YYZ
As Lost in Saigon pointed out, when Air Canada laid off 243 pilots in 1992, Air Nova and Air Ontario were expanding. CALPA saw what was happening and so hiring off the street was suspended at the connector to offer positions BOTL, to the laid off AC guys.
The recalls began in 1994 and in 1995 when all 243 pilots had been offered their jobs back, Air Canada posted a requirement for 110 new hire pilots and preference would be given to those at the connector, BOTL. That was when I applied and got hired. That 110 requirement turned out to be a 1000 pilot requirement.
Prior to all that, it was very difficult to actually progress from the connector to the mainline due to the economics of double training for one employee. As a result, at Air Nova, our sights were always on Cathay prior to 1995. The strategy was to get a 1000 hrs in the Fisher Price Starlifter and apply.
It looks like after 10 years that it is going back to the way it was, unfortunately, there has been an illusion created that a spot at Jazz should get you a spot at mainline. It is funny how quite often to predict the future in aviation, we need to look to the past.
The recalls began in 1994 and in 1995 when all 243 pilots had been offered their jobs back, Air Canada posted a requirement for 110 new hire pilots and preference would be given to those at the connector, BOTL. That was when I applied and got hired. That 110 requirement turned out to be a 1000 pilot requirement.
Prior to all that, it was very difficult to actually progress from the connector to the mainline due to the economics of double training for one employee. As a result, at Air Nova, our sights were always on Cathay prior to 1995. The strategy was to get a 1000 hrs in the Fisher Price Starlifter and apply.
It looks like after 10 years that it is going back to the way it was, unfortunately, there has been an illusion created that a spot at Jazz should get you a spot at mainline. It is funny how quite often to predict the future in aviation, we need to look to the past.
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