Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
No offense but the pilots could go down load the bags, take the tickets, fuel the plane, and fly it to the destination. I know because I've done all that. A lot.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Don't give management any ideas. Lol
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
altiplano wrote: I call bullshit.
Oh, yah? Test me. I'd be willing to bet that I was a pilot for AC before you were born. In the days of CALPA, long before any of the mergers and consolidations. Before centralized crew scheduling, and before the F/A's got their first "Me Too" to the pilot contract ("per diem" expenses were raised to be the same as those of the pilots). When F/A's were called stewardesses, and only males were hired as "Pursers."
Just because I haven't participated on this forum before doesn't mean that I am not fully aware of this airline's history and of the implications of these most recent "deals".
I still stand by my post—providing separate classes of benefits to the different employee groups serves only to divide the employee groups as a whole, and in the long run is counterproductive to the organization's long-term health.
Last edited by Sinister on Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Correct. But that's not the issue. The airline works because everyone contributes—small cogs, big cogs—the only way it works really well is when all the cogs are functioning together, without stress.
It is arguable that some of the members' contribution is more valuable than the contribution of others. That is confirmed in the wage structure. But for benefits such as personal travel, there is no equivalent tie. Everyone on the team is, or should be, treated equally. And to keep harmony, there should be a perception of equality.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
If you were an AC pilot before I was born then it's unlikely you would be a pilot here today. Maybe one of those top few... How many years does PD have?
Your disdain for your junior colleagues and RPs is what is most disappointing in your post. Pilots are joining with 20, 30, or even more years in the business, RCAF, AC Express, Heavy Jets, Northern Ops, more... A 2 year RP is really a 22 year pilot - a Captain in previous roles whether F18 or F28 - and yes, they should ride ahead of a 3rd year 21 year old FA or a 50th year 70 year old FA. I'm just disappointed it's only 3 times a year. I'm disappointed Engineers aren't with us in the B1s... but they've got their own problems with the IAM...Just because I haven't participated on this forum before doesn't mean that I am not fully aware of this airline's history and of the implications of these most recent "deals".
You still haven't answered to the fact that FAs happily took their own higher seniority and no service charges on their own deal. Rank hypocrisy - and you advocate for them, against us?
Your opinions are irrelevant anyway. An agreed upon, competent arbitrator has already sided with AC's choice in this matter.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Looks like the Yammer junkies have moved on to Avcanada. Being shut-down by the Director of HR, losing the greivience wasn’t enough. Reality check buddy, different job different perks.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
I gather you’re a retired pilot and dislike both the C1 and B1 passes? I would too, but if in fact you are no longer flying for the airline, your argument hurts your position, as retirees no longer play a role as a cog in the wheel.Sinister wrote: ↑Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:39 pmCorrect. But that's not the issue. The airline works because everyone contributes—small cogs, big cogs—the only way it works really well is when all the cogs are functioning together, without stress.
It is arguable that some of the members' contribution is more valuable than the contribution of others. That is confirmed in the wage structure. But for benefits such as personal travel, there is no equivalent tie. Everyone on the team is, or should be, treated equally. And to keep harmony, there should be a perception of equality.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
At many carriers, if not most carriers, certainly the big US ones... active employees go ahead of retirees.
That should be the next pass change.
I'm sure retirees will understand, you know... I'm just too busy doing my part as a cog, than to get bumped by a 40 year seniority retired Office Worker... it takes active employees to make this machine go and make sure there's a successful company to keep the pension cheques, benefits, and passes going for retirees. I'm sure they understand.
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Wow retirees bump current employees? How on earth does that fly? Is there a retiree union as well, casting votes for current benefits offered?
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
That is correct.infiniteregulus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:17 pm Wow retirees bump current employees? How on earth does that fly? Is there a retiree union as well, casting votes for current benefits offered?
As a commuter going to work, to make the airline money so it can continue to operate, I get bumped by a retiree going to see his kid.
And that retiree probably has a +30yrs Defined Benefit plan pension of well into 6 figures but needs to save money with standby passes to trump the employees who can’t afford to live in Toronto / Vancouver on 4 years flat pay.
It is what it is, I guess
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Best part is there is a group of them preparing to sue us for "marginalising their benefits"
Air Canada Save Our Seniors wrote:Air Canada's "Free & Reduced Rate Transportation Policy has been in effect for over 65 years.
In the Employee Introductory Handbook we received upon becoming permanent it clearly states on the first page,
" Your employee benefits are designed to contribute to your total well-being and that of your family"
The Travel Privileges we were given are a benefit of employment. It is a privilege to use them and the company went into great detail in the Travel Privileges section.
Boarding Sequence: The designated priority ( A or C ) is given in accordance with your Company employment category. The Sequence of boarding is based on your Company Service Date or ( DOJ ) which is clearly indicated on your ID & Travel Card.
The company has embarked on a procedure of "divide and conquer" with the negotiation of the ACPA 10 year contract. Along with the many other items that were negotiated, Air Canada offered special super seniority passes to their members. These are identified as B1 passes.
In effect pilots and their families, friends and partners are boarded prior to anyone else.
The company then followed this up offering other groups of employees in different Unions special passes but always below that of the B1 passes.
The Company now had all Union groups negotiating for these passes on the "me too principle"
Air Canada were well aware of the earlier award by Harvey Frumkin in 1994 where he ruled that the Free & Reduced Rate Travel were "Non-Negotiable."
Mr. Frumkin also made it clear that the company could not discriminate against one employee for the benefit of another employee.
The company has been politely telling anyone who cares to listen that these were a gift to ACPA for signing a 10 year contact. I asked their lawyer in Toronto on June 16, 2017 what part of the word, "NEGOTIATIONS" the Company did not understand? I got no answer.
We can say nothing and accept this and go on grumbling
OR,
we can challenge the Company on this and have our say in a court of competent jurisdiction.
We cannot do this without the co-operation of all of us. In numbers there is strength.
ASK YOURSELF
How many years did we put into Air Canada?
How many times were we asked to work harder for less?
How many sacrifices did we personally make to see Air Canada become the best airline in the world?
To those of you who are still working and soon to retire. You need to to get on board now and be heard. Please stand with us and bring back "SENIORITY" to the D.O.J.
HOW TO JOIN
THE CONTRIBUTION FEE IS $50.00
Use the EET - Electronic Email Transfer from your bank account.
Please use the email at the bottom of this page when choosing this method.
Please include your personal email so we can advise you of your deposit.
- infiniteregulus
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Ouch man! I can understand the pension payouts, that's fair, but I just can't comprehend bumping current employees. That's rough! At least put em at the lowest level whatever it is. C6?groundpilot wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:38 pmThat is correct.infiniteregulus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:17 pm Wow retirees bump current employees? How on earth does that fly? Is there a retiree union as well, casting votes for current benefits offered?
As a commuter going to work, to make the airline money so it can continue to operate, I get bumped by a retiree going to see his kid.
And that retiree probably has a +30yrs Defined Benefit plan pension of well into 6 figures but needs to save money with standby passes to trump the employees who can’t afford to live in Toronto / Vancouver on 4 years flat pay.
It is what it is, I guess
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
The guy running it has collected over 100k from retirees sending in $50 a pop and has no accountability nor has anything been done. The pionairs are very suspicious of the situation as well.altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:08 pm Best part is there is a group of them preparing to sue us for "marginalising their benefits"
Air Canada Save Our Seniors wrote:Air Canada's "Free & Reduced Rate Transportation Policy has been in effect for over 65 years.
In the Employee Introductory Handbook we received upon becoming permanent it clearly states on the first page,
" Your employee benefits are designed to contribute to your total well-being and that of your family"
The Travel Privileges we were given are a benefit of employment. It is a privilege to use them and the company went into great detail in the Travel Privileges section.
Boarding Sequence: The designated priority ( A or C ) is given in accordance with your Company employment category. The Sequence of boarding is based on your Company Service Date or ( DOJ ) which is clearly indicated on your ID & Travel Card.
The company has embarked on a procedure of "divide and conquer" with the negotiation of the ACPA 10 year contract. Along with the many other items that were negotiated, Air Canada offered special super seniority passes to their members. These are identified as B1 passes.
In effect pilots and their families, friends and partners are boarded prior to anyone else.
The company then followed this up offering other groups of employees in different Unions special passes but always below that of the B1 passes.
The Company now had all Union groups negotiating for these passes on the "me too principle"
Air Canada were well aware of the earlier award by Harvey Frumkin in 1994 where he ruled that the Free & Reduced Rate Travel were "Non-Negotiable."
Mr. Frumkin also made it clear that the company could not discriminate against one employee for the benefit of another employee.
The company has been politely telling anyone who cares to listen that these were a gift to ACPA for signing a 10 year contact. I asked their lawyer in Toronto on June 16, 2017 what part of the word, "NEGOTIATIONS" the Company did not understand? I got no answer.
We can say nothing and accept this and go on grumbling
OR,
we can challenge the Company on this and have our say in a court of competent jurisdiction.
We cannot do this without the co-operation of all of us. In numbers there is strength.
ASK YOURSELF
How many years did we put into Air Canada?
How many times were we asked to work harder for less?
How many sacrifices did we personally make to see Air Canada become the best airline in the world?
To those of you who are still working and soon to retire. You need to to get on board now and be heard. Please stand with us and bring back "SENIORITY" to the D.O.J.
HOW TO JOIN
THE CONTRIBUTION FEE IS $50.00
Use the EET - Electronic Email Transfer from your bank account.
Please use the email at the bottom of this page when choosing this method.
Please include your personal email so we can advise you of your deposit.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Sinister is entitled to his own opinion.
The simple math is that 99.9% of the pilots think that a pilot, Capt.,F/O or RP should go first for D.H's. SIMPLE fact.
Did the F/As take a 20 % pay cut back in the early 2000;s...................NO.
The training and responsibilities of the Pilots stands on it's own merits. We will never convince the other employee groups of any of this. DON'T waist a minute of your time ever trying!
I am very pleased to see the F/Os and RP's finally given their due.Long. long, overdue. I would gladly trade the three, B1 passes for a 20% pay raise; but alas the Union did not negotiate that.
Have a nice one.
The simple math is that 99.9% of the pilots think that a pilot, Capt.,F/O or RP should go first for D.H's. SIMPLE fact.
Did the F/As take a 20 % pay cut back in the early 2000;s...................NO.
The training and responsibilities of the Pilots stands on it's own merits. We will never convince the other employee groups of any of this. DON'T waist a minute of your time ever trying!
I am very pleased to see the F/Os and RP's finally given their due.Long. long, overdue. I would gladly trade the three, B1 passes for a 20% pay raise; but alas the Union did not negotiate that.
Have a nice one.
- infiniteregulus
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
I'm sure a pay raise would help out a lot more than a few passes for the hundreds of folks commuting into work into the most expensive cities in Canada haha.
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
The interesting fact here is that FAs receive better per diems today than pilots on the same layover. Why is that? Should ACPA be filing a grievance against CUPE/AC due to selective preference (read: discriminatory practice) to cover the same employee expenses on company business time?Before centralized crew scheduling, and before the F/A's got their first "Me Too" to the pilot contract ("per diem" expenses were raised to be the same as those of the pilots).
I thought retiree priority degraded to C3 upon retirement date? I didn't know they kept C2 status. Is that correct?
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
My father inlaw retired with C2 plus the JSA passes... maybe some packages are different.yycflyguy wrote: ↑Tue May 01, 2018 1:06 pmThe interesting fact here is that FAs receive better per diems today than pilots on the same layover. Why is that? Should ACPA be filing a grievance against CUPE/AC due to selective preference (read: discriminatory practice) to cover the same employee expenses on company business time?Before centralized crew scheduling, and before the F/A's got their first "Me Too" to the pilot contract ("per diem" expenses were raised to be the same as those of the pilots).
I thought retiree priority degraded to C3 upon retirement date? I didn't know they kept C2 status. Is that correct?
Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Does it make a difference if they retired from Canadian or AC?
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Re: Air Canada Wins CUPE Grievance re B2 Passes For Pilots
Retired regional pilots that were grandfathered into C2s drop to C3 at retirement,