436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

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Old fella
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Old fella » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:25 pm

Thought I read on this site a good many times that initial AC courses has its fair share of pilots from the AC feeders as well from WJ/Encore/Porter/Jazz/AT/Sunwing and Northern Operations such as CN, First Air. If such is the case, could one assume that some current pilots at those companies I noted do have their applications on file for future consideration at AC. I am not of the airline breed , never have but sure gives the impression Air Canada is the place to be. Just saying.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Anticyclone » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:06 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:20 pm
135k USD to fly a 767 in Japan. Year 5 pay is over 200k USD. As an FO.

Upgrades are apparently around 3-5 years right now. 200k + USD first year. Year 5 is around 270k USD.

Oh did I mention that includes 12 consecutive days off a month with round trip biz tickets?

Go to AC, make 250k CAD in the next 5 years. Go to AJX make 850k USD in the same amount of time. That's over a million CAD. Chance it could be more if you upgrade.

Canadians once again get fucked in the grand scheme of things
Lightchop i see that you have been a bit expressive lately you must have been disappointed, well i don't blame you bro a few people are including myself. :sunglasses:
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Lightchop » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:44 pm

Anticyclone wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:06 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:20 pm
135k USD to fly a 767 in Japan. Year 5 pay is over 200k USD. As an FO.

Upgrades are apparently around 3-5 years right now. 200k + USD first year. Year 5 is around 270k USD.

Oh did I mention that includes 12 consecutive days off a month with round trip biz tickets?

Go to AC, make 250k CAD in the next 5 years. Go to AJX make 850k USD in the same amount of time. That's over a million CAD. Chance it could be more if you upgrade.

Canadians once again get fucked in the grand scheme of things
Lightchop i see that you have been a bit expressive lately you must have been disappointed, well i don't blame you bro a few people are including myself. :sunglasses:
Lots of people are frustrated, especially those of us that have been here a few years and sit in a left seat. The PML was used as a shady hiring tactic, and done so in a way that made it seem like an interview was a sure thing. It's annoying to see (but I'm also happy for them) friends who were hired 6-8 months before me already at AC for nearly a year because they managed to get on the last actual "list." Both of whom were only FOs and spent less than two years at Jazz.

Yet since the new "portal" opened up not a peep. If I could interview and at least an offer or get a PFO then I can plan my life a bit better. But sitting in limbo while AC continues to hire Westjet and Encore pilots while Jazz offers LOAs because of overstaffing is frustrating indeed.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by daedalusx » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:35 pm

Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:44 pm
Anticyclone wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:06 pm
Lightchop wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:20 pm
135k USD to fly a 767 in Japan. Year 5 pay is over 200k USD. As an FO.

Upgrades are apparently around 3-5 years right now. 200k + USD first year. Year 5 is around 270k USD.

Oh did I mention that includes 12 consecutive days off a month with round trip biz tickets?

Go to AC, make 250k CAD in the next 5 years. Go to AJX make 850k USD in the same amount of time. That's over a million CAD. Chance it could be more if you upgrade.

Canadians once again get fucked in the grand scheme of things
Lightchop i see that you have been a bit expressive lately you must have been disappointed, well i don't blame you bro a few people are including myself. :sunglasses:
Lots of people are frustrated, especially those of us that have been here a few years and sit in a left seat. The PML was used as a shady hiring tactic, and done so in a way that made it seem like an interview was a sure thing. It's annoying to see (but I'm also happy for them) friends who were hired 6-8 months before me already at AC for nearly a year because they managed to get on the last actual "list." Both of whom were only FOs and spent less than two years at Jazz.

Yet since the new "portal" opened up not a peep. If I could interview and at least an offer or get a PFO then I can plan my life a bit better. But sitting in limbo while AC continues to hire Westjet and Encore pilots while Jazz offers LOAs because of overstaffing is frustrating indeed.
I can relate 100%. Same thing happened to us... And I still need another year on the left seat to be able to pay back my line of credit of all my financial losses for the first year and half on that disgraceful pay scale. I just want the PFO so I can move on.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Blue Side Up » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:13 pm

I understand it’s frustrating guys... but if I can offer one piece of advice here it is: Air Canada doesn’t owe you anything. It’s a multi billion dollar corporation and at the end of the day they make decisions based on what’s best for the company. The original PML, which I was a part of, was implemented to get a lot of the high paid skippers from Jazz over to Mainline by offering them the FIP for the first four years. The PML 2.0 or whatever it was was never in the original agreement and Air Canada didn’t need to hire exclusively from Jazz anymore once PML 1.0 was exhausted.
From a business perspective would it make more sense to increase the training costs internally (at Jazz) or hurt the competition by hiring from other airlines? The whole PML thing was used as a lure for the regionals to entice pilots at reduced pay to feed the regionals with the “chance” at an Air Canada interview. There’s no contract that I know of that says AC needs to hire from the regionals anymore. The original PML was the only formal agreement between the pilot groups. The 2.0, 3.0 whatever it is now was Jazz’s way of dangling a carrot in front of guys so they’d take a job for 36k a year.
Do I agree with these strategies? Absolutely not. The only thing you can do is be patient and if you get the interview show up with a smile and be respectful. If the hiring team senses any sense of entitlement or anything like that you’ll get the PFO really quick. There’s a ton of opportunity for pilots right now. Submit your applications to other places if you’re not happy at Jazz and enjoy the journey. I absolutely loved my time at Jazz and was planning on staying there for the long term if I got PFOd from AC. It’s an awesome gig and I have nothing but fond memories bombing around in the classic. Great people, great airplanes and great company. Your journey is what you make it, doesn’t mean it has to be AC.

Good luck!
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Lightchop » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:30 pm

Blue Side Up wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:13 pm
I understand it’s frustrating guys... but if I can offer one piece of advice here it is: Air Canada doesn’t owe you anything. It’s a multi billion dollar corporation and at the end of the day they make decisions based on what’s best for the company. The original PML, which I was a part of, was implemented to get a lot of the high paid skippers from Jazz over to Mainline by offering them the FIP for the first four years. The PML 2.0 or whatever it was was never in the original agreement and Air Canada didn’t need to hire exclusively from Jazz anymore once PML 1.0 was exhausted.
From a business perspective would it make more sense to increase the training costs internally (at Jazz) or hurt the competition by hiring from other airlines? The whole PML thing was used as a lure for the regionals to entice pilots at reduced pay to feed the regionals with the “chance” at an Air Canada interview. There’s no contract that I know of that says AC needs to hire from the regionals anymore. The original PML was the only formal agreement between the pilot groups. The 2.0, 3.0 whatever it is now was Jazz’s way of dangling a carrot in front of guys so they’d take a job for 36k a year.
Do I agree with these strategies? Absolutely not. The only thing you can do is be patient and if you get the interview show up with a smile and be respectful. If the hiring team senses any sense of entitlement or anything like that you’ll get the PFO really quick. There’s a ton of opportunity for pilots right now. Submit your applications to other places if you’re not happy at Jazz and enjoy the journey. I absolutely loved my time at Jazz and was planning on staying there for the long term if I got PFOd from AC. It’s an awesome gig and I have nothing but fond memories bombing around in the classic. Great people, great airplanes and great company. Your journey is what you make it, doesn’t mean it has to be AC.

Good luck!
I agree with everything you said.

You're right, no one owes me anything. I understand that. The only frustrating thing is at the time of being hired, management at Jazz really over sold the FPML as "sure interview." I saw many pilots go over with the second variation of the PML, but since that one closed in December of 2016 it was radio silence for over a year before they opened the "Express Portal." I'm not aware of anyone who applied via that new system having had an interview yet.

It's not just a Jazz thing either. All the Express carriers have seen a huge drop in hiring to mainline and all we see on our end is an increase in Westjet hiring. AC needs to be careful because if they don't start taking people, no one will want to work at Express. It's easy to put up with junk pay if you know in 2-3 years you'll have the chance to interview. But now I'm seeing some great Captains being PFOd with no apparent reason. Guys I flew with when I was an FO. And lack of interviewing for the last 12 months.

I like my job at Jazz, I honestly wouldn't want to be anywhere else regional wise in Canada. But let's be serious, everyone more or less came here for a shot at AC, and if things don't start moving soon Jazz is going to lose a lot of people. I know a number of Captains who are all exploring opportunities at Sunwing, AT, Emirates etc. I could leave tomorrow and make close to $200k CAD year one as a 767 FO. Essentially month in month out. I know, that's not for everyone so it's not a fair comparison and if I got a job offer at AC it wouldn't even be a question. I want to stay in Canada if I can, even if it means dealing with flat pay. Home is home. But if I don't see some movement soon (remember I'm not even talking about myself I'm speaking generally, there's lots of guys and girls here who have been around longer than me that are also waiting for a call) it might be time to start looking elsewhere. Perhaps take an LOA if I can until AC blinks or I get off reserve. Things have not moved much in the last 12 months. Hope to see an up tick here this fall.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Eric Janson » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:48 am

Blue Side Up wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:40 pm
I agree you can make a lot more money over seas but remember... it’ll never be the same as being home! It works for people who are flexible but if you want a normal life in Canada, AC is still the best place to be. I would not want to commute to China or the sand pit even if they are paying $500k. F**k that!
When I worked overseas I didn't commute as a return trip home cost 3 days. Commuting grinds you down - I can't see it being a viable option long term.

I made more money flying the same number of hours as the Commuters and I had 60 days of leave to play with.

I used to take 3 blocks of 20 days to actually give me some useful time at home.

The issue that people never think about is what happens when they want to return to Canada? Starting at the bottom again isn't a viable option for a lot of people.

With the current job market in Canada you'd be foolish to go overseas - just my opinion.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by DHC7DVR » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:08 pm

Anyone know what the first year pay is at AC? I've looked around, but got some seriously conflicting answers..

I've just heard that they called my referances last Wednesday, but nothing heard yet. Then again it might be a moot point anyway; if the first year pay is as low as one of the estimate Ive heard, then it's simply not going to be economicly viable....
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by AOW » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:38 pm

DHC7DVR wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:08 pm
Anyone know what the first year pay is at AC? I've looked around, but got some seriously conflicting answers..

I've just heard that they called my referances last Wednesday, but nothing heard yet. Then again it might be a moot point anyway; if the first year pay is as low as one of the estimate Ive heard, then it's simply not going to be economicly viable....
1st year salary, until April 2019, is $58.88/hr, with a minimum monthly guarantee of 75 hours. 2nd year is $64.38, 3rd year $73.37, 4th year $82.16. All those numbers go up 2% per year, in April... hopefully more with the next contract, but that might be a half a lifetime away!
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by DHC7DVR » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:36 pm

Thanks for the info; much appreciated...
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Blue Side Up » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:08 am

If you’re a new hire and you’re worried about the pay; I’d recommend Rouge. Especially the 67. Plenty of draft available and during the shoulder seasons you can work as little as 6-10 days depending on how you bid. 77.5 monthly guarantee and draft pays 2.5x. So you’re $59/hr is $147/hr on draft. The flat pay is BS but you’ll make more money at Rouge with the obvious downside of working on your days off. It’s a trade off. If you’re working 8 days it’s no big deal to pick up a 2 or 3 dayer in my opinion. Also the fact that there’s no reserve is pretty sweet. Mainline is the best gig when you have seniority and you’re off flat pay or in the left seat. Plenty of variety at AC.. that’s key.

Hope this helps
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by altiplano » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am

Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by atphat » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:56 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am
Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.
All OT at Rouge is now 2.5
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by ZBBYLW » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:22 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am
Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.
That's not true almost all overtime at rouge is 2.5x.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Duke Point » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:52 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am
Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.
The reason not all wait for draft pay and take AVO at 1.5 is that not everyone is sitting around Toronto waiting for the phone to ring. There are plenty of Rouge pilots that commute from Halifax, Calgary, Winnipeg and the like, that WILL NOT get called for draft by crew sked becuase they are just too far away. AVO is often the only way some poeple can do any overtime. Its always the guys who are located 20 minutes from the airport that rag on guys from Halifax accepting VO for the next day, when they think they should have gotten it on draft.

DP
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Duke Point » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:54 pm

ZBBYLW wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:22 pm
altiplano wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:20 am
Problem at the LCC is many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay only, scooping your chance at 2.5x... and the awards aren't very transparent.

OT at mainline pays the 1.5x if you are working a full block, + another .5 if you're over 85 hours, so mostly at double time... FWIW.

I don't see too many at the LCC still on 8 day schedules except maybe shoulder season.
That's not true almost all overtime at rouge is 2.5x.

Wrong. Overtime at Rouge occurs at 1.5x

Draft is 2.5x
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by altiplano » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:20 pm

ZBBYLW wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:22 pm
That's not true almost all overtime at rouge is 2.5x.
Not true?
What I said was exactly true.

Almost all?
Hardly.

What I said is exactly true... plenty of VO being done at 1.5.

Whatever peoples motives, or whether I agree it's irrelevant.... I just call it like I see it...

OT, Draft, whatever... but the 2.5x thing at the LCC is oversold... it isn't as widespread as some want to make it seem. I'm not speculating.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by ZBBYLW » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:47 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:20 pm
ZBBYLW wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:22 pm
That's not true almost all overtime at rouge is 2.5x.
Not true?
What I said was exactly true.

Almost all?
Hardly.

What I said is exactly true... plenty of VO being done at 1.5.

Whatever peoples motives, or whether I agree it's irrelevant.... I just call it like I see it...

OT, Draft, whatever... but the 2.5x thing at the LCC is oversold... it isn't as widespread as some want to make it seem. I'm not speculating.
In need i see the odd person list for VO but from my experience it's been 90% or minute draft. FWIW every day I've listed for draft I've gotten a call. So even if 1 guy does a VO trip and gets their choice of flying there is plenty of draft. The other bases may be different I'm more discussing the Airbus in YYZ.

Anyhow it doesn't matter to argue, both are available options to pilots who want it.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by altiplano » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:45 am

I'm not looking to argue, but to be accurate.

I said:
"Many won't wait for draft and go to work for 1.5x pay"

You said:
"That's not true"

In fact it is true.

You might go for draft, many may go for draft, but many do not... it isn't always available.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Blue Side Up » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:21 am

Don’t know whether or not you’re at Rouge but I can speak from experience that there’s plenty of draft available. With the new contract, any “cold call” you get from crew sked to take a trip is automatically 2.5x. Also, pretty much every day I’ve listed myself for draft I’ve gotten a call. This is from the 67 FO side; not sure what the the 319 is like. Even if a few guys list for VO I still get plenty of draft.

The whole “not many guys work 8-10 days anymore” is incorrect as well. I can consistently work 8-10 days and have when I don’t feel like doing the overseas. We have daily MEX turns that are worth 9:10 credit as well as other very productive flying. A lot of guys choose to do a lot of the longer layovers because the places we fly to are amazing. I should probably stop selling it but the 767 at the LCC is a pretty sweet gig. IMHO obviously. For my lifestyle it provides the most flexibility, time off and cool flying.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by altiplano » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:29 pm

Blue Side Up wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:21 am
The whole “not many guys work 8-10 days anymore” is incorrect as well. I can consistently work 8-10 days and have when I don’t feel like doing the overseas. We have daily MEX turns that are worth 9:10 credit as well as other very productive flying. A lot of guys choose to do a lot of the longer layovers because the places we fly to are amazing. I should probably stop selling it but the 767 at the LCC is a pretty sweet gig. IMHO obviously. For my lifestyle it provides the most flexibility, time off and cool flying.
Is that incorrect?

Because THE FACT is that nobody is working 8-10 on the latest schedule.

YYZ LCC767....

102 blockholder schedules:

78 work 16+ days
6 work 15 days
3 work 14 days
13 work 13 days
2 work 11 days

Clearly a new hire taking 767 can't plan on working 8-10 days. I take it you're an FO? How many days are you blocked next month? It obviously isn't 8-10. How about this month? Last month?

"Consistently" you say...

The company will get better as the LCC flying matures at having as many as possible, working as much as possible... 8-10 consistently? Not for many, and not outside the shoulder seasons.

The facts are clear.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Victory » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:42 pm

How about mainline 767? Can you post that too for comparison?
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Blue Side Up » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:59 pm

Alright, alright let’s all take a deep breath! I’m not looking to start any arguments just speaking from experience. I can’t deny your facts there and appreciate you going through all the trouble of looking up the skeds of that many FOs. Can I ask if you are at Rouge or have ever been at Rouge?

My July was 10 days, August I decided to bid some longer layovers so my days are higher (72 hour layovers). Not going to say how many but it’s less than 16 even with the long layovers. It all depends on how you bid. If you don’t need specific days off you can bid to fly productive pairings and to avoid days worked greater than whatever. If you understand how the math works in PBS you can get consisitent results. It’s a computer program, it takes the inputs and tries to satisfy you within the pilot pool. Maybe I shouldn’t say you can consistently work 10 days but I’ve had many months where I bid productive flying and worked 9-12 days. It’s not out of the ordinary. I have a buddy on the 319 who worked 7 days in June.

You won’t get it every single month like you would in a senior position at mainline but I can guarantee you that as a new hire you’ll have a better sked at Rouge on the 67 than mainline 67. It’s not perfect but I’m pretty content with where I am.

What a lot of guys choose to do as well is bid to work 16 days but doing 48 or 72 hour layovers. So really if you’re blocked with 4 48 hour layovers, you’re only flying 8 legs that month (which I’ve done many times too). You are right that from June-end of August it’s more difficult to get those gravy skeds but our shoulder season is much longer than our peak season so your odds of having a productive sked are higher.

I’m not telling everyone how amazing Rouge is and how everyone should make the switch... Just speaking from my own experience and providing information from a regular line pilot. Are there tiring flights? Hell ya there are. Am I ever tired? Damn right I am. But I still love the gig and wouldn’t change it (besides getting rid of flat pay)
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by Blue Side Up » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:00 pm

Victory wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:42 pm
How about mainline 767? Can you post that too for comparison?
You’ll be on reserve for years and guarantee you’ll work 16 days.
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Re: 436 Vacancies Until Summer 2019

Post by altiplano » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:19 pm

I think the more telling question is: Have you worked at Mainline?

I'm not disputing that the LCC is a good gig, you are possibly portraying it in an even more optimistic light however. I have been at the LCC and there was no where near the amount of draft being claimed on here... They have taken some of the best flying and the most productive flying from mainline, and it's interesting for sure. Really, overall and in the long run, wherever you end up at this airline, there are some good things going on... and no spot is forever if you don't like it.

As I posted earlier, I'm just trying to be accurate for people trying to make financial decisions, and have a true idea of what to expect coming here.
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