Career First Officer at AC by design?

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A321
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Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by A321 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:32 pm

For those joining AC late in life, being a senior "career F/O" has the advantage of bidding for preferred routes and working on larger aircraft. Are there risks bidding for the left seat at Air Canada that deter some F/O's from taking command? If you don't pass the Captain ride, do you resume your previous F/O career within the company? What other "Pros" and "Cons" are there for career F/Os?
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:40 pm

If lifestyle is your main motivation it is almost always much better to be senior on a junior bid then junior on a senior bid.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by NotDirty! » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:49 pm

There are provisions in case you fail to upgrade... you still have a job, but you cannot attempt an upgrade again for a certain period. There are some who are happy to be FOs for a long time... better seniority gives you more control of your schedule, vacation, etc. The most senior FOs in most categories at AC could hold captain on the same or even larger aircraft, but chose to stay there for lifestyle or other personal reasons.

The biggest con to staying an FO is the lower pay. Especially recently, when very junior pilots have been able to take an upgrade, and get off of the low first four years pay, there is lots of incentive to upgrade ASAP. Being a very junior captain has lots of cons too, but people will put up with it to see their pay rates go up 2.5 times!

There are a number of very senior RPs too, who could hold an FO position on any aircraft, or a fairly senior captain seat on any of the narrowbodies. But many of them are happy to stay where they are, do 3 trips to Asia a month, and lots of free time... it is all a matter of personal priorities.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by pianokeys » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:39 am

Ask yourself what you want and need out of life. Money, schedule, self-bettering yourself by being the best you can be for you and not social media - the CA, FO, or RP positions all have their pros and cons, it just depends how well it fits in with what you want and need out of life.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by rudder » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am

There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:37 pm

rudder wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am
There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
Can the 777 FO as sited in your example at some point hold enough seniority to move over the the left seat on the same aircraft. If such is possible I would assume he/she would be at initial Captain pay scale on that aircraft(B777) but can't be paid lower than he/she is earning now. Is there such thing as flying reserve as an initial Captain on that aircraft.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by JBI » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:50 pm

There's an Aviation Doctor north of Toronto who took early retirement from AC a few years ago. Even though he had been with AC for a few decades, he was number 1 on the A320 FO list. As I understand it, he would bid super productive one day turns so he could work 9 or so days a month and then practice medicine full time (I'm sure there are folks on this board who know him and can clarify the specifics better than I can). Nonetheless, it points out that there are definitely benefits to not upgrading and/or keeping a high seniority on a junior-ish aircraft/position.

Also know of a fellow who was an RP on the 767 for 10 or so years. He did training, bid the specific trips he wanted out of YVR and commuted. He was/is extremely happy with life even though he's "just" an RP.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Victory » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Old fella wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:37 pm
rudder wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am
There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
Can the 777 FO as sited in your example at some point hold enough seniority to move over the the left seat on the same aircraft. If such is possible I would assume he/she would be at initial Captain pay scale on that aircraft(B777) but can't be paid lower than he/she is earning now. Is there such thing as flying reserve as an initial Captain on that aircraft.
Absolutely you can as long as you have the seniority to hold a Captain seat. You don't go to bottom of Captain pay. Air Canada has years of service in their contact. ie. a 777 FO that has worked at AC for 12 years and moves to the left seat will receive 12 year Captain pay. There is reserve Captains that is seniority based on their position on the list. Unless more senior Captains bid reserve, which happens.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 am

Victory wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:52 pm
Old fella wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:37 pm
rudder wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am
There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
Can the 777 FO as sited in your example at some point hold enough seniority to move over the the left seat on the same aircraft. If such is possible I would assume he/she would be at initial Captain pay scale on that aircraft(B777) but can't be paid lower than he/she is earning now. Is there such thing as flying reserve as an initial Captain on that aircraft.
Absolutely you can as long as you have the seniority to hold a Captain seat. You don't go to bottom of Captain pay. Air Canada has years of service in their contact. ie. a 777 FO that has worked at AC for 12 years and moves to the left seat will receive 12 year Captain pay. There is reserve Captains that is seniority based on their position on the list. Unless more senior Captains bid reserve, which happens.
Thanks for the informative post, quite interesting to hear about the internal workings inside a major airline. If I may ask, what is the difference in training for that 12 yr 777FO who decides to move the left seat on same aircraft. He/she would know the B777 well So would it be more of your decision making process rather that beating you up in the B777 sim , I mean what do they do more to you in sim training that you haven’t already seen. Would it be correct to say more emphasis on line flying at challenging airports(dare I say SFO) to see how he/she handles normal decision making operations as well interactions with your crew.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Victory » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:00 am

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe for widebody aircraft (except the 767?) you would have to do the full course if going from the right seat to the left. They're not fooling around with aircraft with potentially 400+ people on them.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:12 am

It is a somewhat shortened course, same type right to left seat, whether EMJ or 777...

I'd have to pull up the exact footprints if you wanted to know by how much, but it would be similar.

First command upgrade has extra sim evaluations, "command sims", separate from the type training/rating itself.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by bcflyer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:44 am

Victory wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:00 am
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe for widebody aircraft (except the 767?) you would have to do the full course if going from the right seat to the left. They're not fooling around with aircraft with potentially 400+ people on them.
So you thing they fool around with planes that carry 195 people? A/C treats all command training the same wether the plane carries 95 or 495.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by RVR6000 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:27 pm

Following is involved with your first command at AC:

- command interview
- command ground school
- sim training (shorten if going right to left)
- sim check ride (type rating)
- line Indoc, approx 25 hrs followed by command sims followed by another 25 hrs of line indoc.
- final line check

Not sure if they’ve gone away with the interview.
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Last edited by RVR6000 on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by RVR6000 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:20 pm

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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:55 pm

They rarely use the pre-upgrade interview. If they do, it might suggest they have concerns over the candidate.

They are also doing lots of the Command Sims at the end of training now, before line-indoctrination. It makes sense. You just finish your type rating course and have been practicing emergencies so the Command Sims are like a "Challenging MTV/LOFT". Then you go out and get proficient acting like a Captain with a training Captain for 50 hours followed by the Final Command Check.

There are "permanent FOs" at AC too. Not just because of lifestyle choices. Not everyone makes it through the upgrade process or they make mistakes when in the position and get demoted.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Alcoholism » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:27 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:55 pm

There are "permanent FOs" at AC too. Not just because of lifestyle choices. Not everyone makes it through the upgrade process or they make mistakes when in the position and get demoted.
I don’t understand how that’s possible if they have degrees. I’m sure HR agrees.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:36 pm

Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:27 pm




I don’t understand how that’s possible if they have degrees. I’m sure HR agrees.
:roll: :roll:
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 am

Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:27 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:55 pm

There are "permanent FOs" at AC too. Not just because of lifestyle choices. Not everyone makes it through the upgrade process or they make mistakes when in the position and get demoted.
I don’t understand how that’s possible if they have degrees. I’m sure HR agrees.
There is still time for you to get a degree and re-apply....
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Alcoholism » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:50 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 am
Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:27 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:55 pm

There are "permanent FOs" at AC too. Not just because of lifestyle choices. Not everyone makes it through the upgrade process or they make mistakes when in the position and get demoted.
I don’t understand how that’s possible if they have degrees. I’m sure HR agrees.
There is still time for you to get a degree and re-apply....
Unfortunately, all I have time for is this:
1. I'd have to apply in the first place in order to reapply.
2. I work at a much better company with much better crews (read; non ego-cuckolds), that #1 would never happen.
3. Even if I died today and came back tomorrow as a entitled degree bearing millennial, I would feel lost without the constant smh & lols every time you amateurs make the news, or do some stupid contract shiit. Don't worry. One day you'll get it right.
4. Even if I had said above degree, it'd be a business degree, and I wouldn't be flying. I'd be one of your manager guys making you bend over every 10 years. Good luck in 2025 btw. lol
5. Must be cool to be a career FO yycguy!
6. Full Stop.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by tailgunner » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:47 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Alcoholism’s post is why, we at AC, have a psych. evaluation.
Seems pretty clear now. He did not apply, because he would not have passed it.
Enjoy your life.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:15 pm

tailgunner wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:47 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Alcoholism’s post is why, we at AC, have a psych. evaluation.
Seems pretty clear now. He did not apply, because he would not have passed it.
Enjoy your life.
Indeed.....
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Alcoholism » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:04 am

tailgunner wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:47 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Alcoholism’s post is why, we at AC, have a psych. evaluation.
Seems pretty clear now. He did not apply, because he would not have passed it.
Enjoy your life.
Ah. You passed a laughable pysch test, so you must be an elite airman of Canadian aviation. Congratulations, you passed a test to determine your likability of flowers and animals. Which is grade 3 material. What's undoubtedly needed as a AC pilot screen is an IQ test. Perhaps a sim eval. Simple straight in approach, can you land it on the runway and keep it on? Nice try tailgummer, you could've gotten me with the digit(s) up the anus as a rebuttal.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by tailgunner » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:10 am

Wow,
Did you hit your head as a young child? You must realize that this psychological exam was not designed by AC? It is designed psychological experts. It is used by many different employers because of the different data that it gathers. The test cannot easily be beaten. If you try, you will fail. There are multiple different layers of questions. So, a simpleton might disparage a question about "the likability of flowers and animals ", while the expert is examining the candidate on honesty and consistency. In addition to AC, the RCMP and CSIS use the exam for candidates into their respective organizations for different career areas.
Again, enjoy your life.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:06 am

Alcoholism wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:50 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 am
Alcoholism wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:27 pm


I don’t understand how that’s possible if they have degrees. I’m sure HR agrees.
There is still time for you to get a degree and re-apply....
Unfortunately, all I have time for is this:
1. I'd have to apply in the first place in order to reapply.
2. I work at a much better company with much better crews (read; non ego-cuckolds), that #1 would never happen.
3. Even if I died today and came back tomorrow as a entitled degree bearing millennial, I would feel lost without the constant smh & lols every time you amateurs make the news, or do some stupid contract shiit. Don't worry. One day you'll get it right.
4. Even if I had said above degree, it'd be a business degree, and I wouldn't be flying. I'd be one of your manager guys making you bend over every 10 years. Good luck in 2025 btw. lol
5. Must be cool to be a career FO yycguy!
6. Full Stop.
LOL.... classic.

I'm so old I got into AC before there were psych tests... and before they realized I shouldn't be a Captain. :lol:

Plans are to hire around 425 guys over the next twelve months. Must suck to know you you won't be one! The funny (read: sad) thing is that the pilot managers who have been "bending us over" are seniority holding pilots. That means you have to get hired as a pilot and then move into management. So, I just saved you all that money on a Business Degree to achieve your goals in life. You're welcome.

Toodles
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Alcoholism » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:55 am

tailgunner wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:10 am
Wow,
Did you hit your head as a young child? You must realize that this psychological exam was not designed by AC? It is designed psychological experts. It is used by many different employers because of the different data that it gathers. The test cannot easily be beaten. If you try, you will fail. There are multiple different layers of questions. So, a simpleton might disparage a question about "the likability of flowers and animals ", while the expert is examining the candidate on honesty and consistency. In addition to AC, the RCMP and CSIS use the exam for candidates into their respective organizations for different career areas.
Again, enjoy your life.
Sounds like it was hard for you. Third try, or daddy finally get you in?
yycflyguy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:06 am
Alcoholism wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:50 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 am
There is still time for you to get a degree and re-apply....
Unfortunately, all I have time for is this:
1. I'd have to apply in the first place in order to reapply.
2. I work at a much better company with much better crews (read; non ego-cuckolds), that #1 would never happen.
3. Even if I died today and came back tomorrow as a entitled degree bearing millennial, I would feel lost without the constant smh & lols every time you amateurs make the news, or do some stupid contract shiit. Don't worry. One day you'll get it right.
4. Even if I had said above degree, it'd be a business degree, and I wouldn't be flying. I'd be one of your manager guys making you bend over every 10 years. Good luck in 2025 btw. lol
5. Must be cool to be a career FO yycguy!
6. Full Stop.
LOL.... classic.

I'm so old I got into AC before there were psych tests... and before they realized I shouldn't be a Captain. :lol:

Plans are to hire around 425 guys over the next twelve months. Must suck to know you you won't be one! The funny (read: sad) thing is that the pilot managers who have been "bending us over" are seniority holding pilots. That means you have to get hired as a pilot and then move into management. So, I just saved you all that money on a Business Degree to achieve your goals in life. You're welcome.

Toodles
Yes, it's gonna suck sooo bad, that I can't be a egotistical blow hard like yourself. Or, maybe I'm a disgruntled AC pilot :shock:

What's funny is how easily the self-proclaimed-elitist-I-must-be-the-best-pilot-because-I'm-an-air-canada-pilot are to get their jimmies rustled. Not hard to see who the weak ones are :up: guess I invaded your safe space, so I do apologize. Everyone knows skill isn't a requirement to get into AC, it's either education, daddy, or life skills (crashed a plane, oh do tell us what you learned from that). In fairness, only 98% of you guys are a joke (again, see above). I know a handful of solid guys there, and they know my handle here and my intentions, so ask around.

Thanks for the laughs.
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