Career First Officer at AC by design?

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Old fella
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:07 am

yycflyguy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:06 am
Alcoholism wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:50 pm
yycflyguy wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:42 am


There is still time for you to get a degree and re-apply....
Unfortunately, all I have time for is this:
1. I'd have to apply in the first place in order to reapply.
2. I work at a much better company with much better crews (read; non ego-cuckolds), that #1 would never happen.
3. Even if I died today and came back tomorrow as a entitled degree bearing millennial, I would feel lost without the constant smh & lols every time you amateurs make the news, or do some stupid contract shiit. Don't worry. One day you'll get it right.
4. Even if I had said above degree, it'd be a business degree, and I wouldn't be flying. I'd be one of your manager guys making you bend over every 10 years. Good luck in 2025 btw. lol
5. Must be cool to be a career FO yycguy!
6. Full Stop.
LOL.... classic.

I'm so old I got into AC before there were psych tests... and before they realized I shouldn't be a Captain. :lol:

Plans are to hire around 425 guys over the next twelve months. Must suck to know you you won't be one! The funny (read: sad) thing is that the pilot managers who have been "bending us over" are seniority holding pilots. That means you have to get hired as a pilot and then move into management. So, I just saved you all that money on a Business Degree to achieve your goals in life. You're welcome.

Toodles
Holy shit 425 guys/gals over the next 12 months, that’s 35.41 new ladies and gents every month. Alcoholism probably wouldn’t qualify for one of the .41 spots even if he thinks you are not half the man he is. Just saying.

:drinkers:
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by ogopogo » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:12 pm

WWTF, WTF, WTF is wrong with some of you people? How does a legitimate post/question always turn into some kind of shite-slinging mess?

I personally found the OP quite interesting to read, but no — this one takes the cake.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by cloak » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:52 am

Wow, very inappropriate remarks especially from those who profess to represent a corporation! Especially inappropriate are the remarks regarding people's psychological profile and somehow relating it to their worth in life and what they deserve. Perhaps Air Canada's job is not complete with the initial screening and ongoing sensitivity training is needed!!

The good news to take away from this mud sling is hiring of 425 pilots which will stimulate the market further and retaining their pilots more "interesting" for other airlines.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:46 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:52 am
Wow, very inappropriate remarks especially from those who profess to represent a corporation! Especially inappropriate are the remarks regarding people's psychological profile and somehow relating it to their worth in life and what they deserve. Perhaps Air Canada's job is not complete with the initial screening and ongoing sensitivity training is needed!!

The good news to take away from this mud sling is hiring of 425 pilots which will stimulate the market further and retaining their pilots more "interesting" for other airlines.
Psych/cog/intelligence tests are used by many many companies. It isn't straightforward and clear to the individual what is being measured, and you can dismiss them all you want, but they have decades of clinical study and research behind them. I don't get them, but I'm not a clinical psychologist and I don't have a degree.

Alcoholism is right that it isn't your maverick-dope piloting skills that get you hired at AC. But it isn't "daddy and a degree" either, somehow I managed...

Anyway, I guess you can get some mud on you when you get in the ditch with a pig... but I don't see any problem with standing up to personal attacks or digs.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by cloak » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:26 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:46 am

Psych/cog/intelligence tests are used by many many companies. It isn't straightforward and clear to the individual what is being measured, and you can dismiss them all you want, but they have decades of clinical study and research behind them. I don't get them, but I'm not a clinical psychologist and I don't have a degree.

Alcoholism is right that it isn't your maverick-dope piloting skills that get you hired at AC. But it isn't "daddy and a degree" either, somehow I managed...

Anyway, I guess you can get some mud on you when you get in the ditch with a pig... but I don't see any problem with standing up to personal attacks or digs.
Of course you do understand that the issue is not the tests by themselves since as you say various companies use them. The issue is rather with the way that they are being used by some as justification to vilify others. That most certainly is not acceptable, including to Air Canada.

And the question to your last comment is why would a reasonable person want to get into a ditch with a pig in the first place? Not to mention that this comment too shows self-righteousness while equating opposing comments and opinions to that of a pig, which obviously is not right either.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:27 am

I don't take that comment re"psych test" as seriously "vilifying" anyone. I think that's is a tit for tat type poke as two forum members get going at one another.

"AC pilots are elitist pricks"
"Go blow yourself"
"99% of AC pilots are a joke.
"Couldn't pass the Psych test, hey"
"Whatever snowflake, daddy got you that AC job and your a shitty pilot"

blah, blah, blah... anyone taking this seriously?

In the ditch... pig... troll... whatever... apt metaphor IMO.

Some forum members involved here have a track record of trolling... and I get a laugh out of it at times...

Self righteous? Hardly... I'm not in this argument, and I just don't see any problem with someone taking a dig back when a guy starts slinging... maybe that's feeding the troll, but that's what avcanada is all about it seems...

alcoholism's comments are obvious hyperbole and meant to incite. Like I said, they're a laugh because they are so ridiculous, and that's what he gets back... He can dish, I'm sure he can take and a reasonable person doesn't take any of this seriously.

Talk about safe spaces... Forget about it...
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Alcoholism » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:46 am

:smt059
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by TOGA Party » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42 pm

This alcoholism guy sure is pretty angry.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:30 am

TOGA Party wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42 pm
This alcoholism guy sure is pretty angry.
He just needs a drink. :drinkers:

and a hug :goodman:
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Alcoholism » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:45 pm

TOGA Party wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:42 pm
This alcoholism guy sure is pretty angry.
Don't be mad bro. Only because I put up with so many rubber-phallic riders in this industry. The statement you (and ACPA) should be asking is whether or not you're one of them.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Highway 401 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:12 pm

:smt017
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by hamstandard » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:42 pm

[quote=tailgunner post_id=1056603 time=1540586877 user_id=1497]
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Alcoholism’s post is why, we at AC, have a psych. evaluation.
[/quote]

Thanks god for the psych exam, otherwise this sort of thing might happen,

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... e17979221/
"Yelling, crying and invoking God, the co-pilot of an Air Canada flight from Toronto to London had to be forcibly removed from the cockpit of his jetliner after suffering an emotional collapse as the plane flew over the Atlantic."

or this other incident,

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/06/0 ... 98171.html

“The cockpit door opens and there is the pilot and he starts screaming and holding onto the airline attendant saying ‘Help me, help me,’” Brown told the Calgary Sun.
“He was screaming, ‘Get me off the plane’ — you don’t want to hear that. He looked like he was insane, grey, dead eyes,” Brown added. He commended the cabin crew for their quick work and keeping passengers calm."

And I know of one for sure that commited suicide and probably another. I know, they will say it only happened subsequent to the exam, as if there were never any precursors.

What were those exam questions again?
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by 7ECA » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:12 pm

hamstandard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:42 pm
What were those exam questions again?
Probably some crap about "were you popular in high school?", "did you have friends who were popular?", "were you an athlete?", etc...
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Dry Guy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:06 am

hamstandard wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:42 pm
tailgunner wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:47 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Alcoholism’s post is why, we at AC, have a psych. evaluation.
Thanks god for the psych exam, otherwise this sort of thing might happen,

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... e17979221/
"Yelling, crying and invoking God, the co-pilot of an Air Canada flight from Toronto to London had to be forcibly removed from the cockpit of his jetliner after suffering an emotional collapse as the plane flew over the Atlantic."

or this other incident,

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/06/0 ... 98171.html

“The cockpit door opens and there is the pilot and he starts screaming and holding onto the airline attendant saying ‘Help me, help me,’” Brown told the Calgary Sun.
“He was screaming, ‘Get me off the plane’ — you don’t want to hear that. He looked like he was insane, grey, dead eyes,” Brown added. He commended the cabin crew for their quick work and keeping passengers calm."

And I know of one for sure that commited suicide and probably another. I know, they will say it only happened subsequent to the exam, as if there were never any precursors.

What were those exam questions again?
It's terrifying to think these could be normal people that stress, sleep deprivation, and disrupted circadian rythms just made snap.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by hamstandard » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:40 am

[quote="Dry Guy" post_id=1059729 time=1543064803 user_id=53210]
[quote=hamstandard post_id=1059677 time=1543012936 user_id=8084]
[quote=tailgunner post_id=1056603 time=1540586877 user_id=1497]
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Alcoholism’s post is why, we at AC, have a psych. evaluation.
[/quote]

Thanks god for the psych exam, otherwise this sort of thing might happen,

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... e17979221/
"Yelling, crying and invoking God, the co-pilot of an Air Canada flight from Toronto to London had to be forcibly removed from the cockpit of his jetliner after suffering an emotional collapse as the plane flew over the Atlantic."

or this other incident,

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/06/0 ... 98171.html

“The cockpit door opens and there is the pilot and he starts screaming and holding onto the airline attendant saying ‘Help me, help me,’” Brown told the Calgary Sun.
“He was screaming, ‘Get me off the plane’ — you don’t want to hear that. He looked like he was insane, grey, dead eyes,” Brown added. He commended the cabin crew for their quick work and keeping passengers calm."

And I know of one for sure that commited suicide and probably another. I know, they will say it only happened subsequent to the exam, as if there were never any precursors.

What were those exam questions again?
[/quote]

It's terrifying to think these could be normal people that stress, sleep deprivation, and disrupted circadian rythms just made snap.
[/quote]

But seeing as only a few snapped, there must have been a prior problem. Oh yeah, that's what the exam is designed to weed out.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Well first of all mental disorder/disease can affect anybody at any time young/old and everyone in between. There are many causes and not associated with personal weakness nor character defects sadly the stigma associated is usually with the latter. Yes a complete recovery is possible and indeed has happened like any other condition or disease. Like many I read about the unfortunate AC F/O incident that happened few years back, I do believe it was subject to commentary here at the time it became public. I hope the individual in question got the medical assistance that was required and went on to have a productive life with support from AC itself and family/friends. When you get my age(touching close to 70) you get to see plenty. In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by cloak » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:53 pm

Old fella wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm
... In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
Sadly that still seems to be the case in some circles, judging by the comments above who view passing a psych test as a sign of their superior skills and worthiness in life! One could argue that "arrogance" and "pride" are the real character defects, not suffering from an illness, physical or mental.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:47 am

cloak wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:53 pm
Old fella wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm
... In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
Sadly that still seems to be the case in some circles, judging by the comments above who view passing a psych test as a sign of their superior skills and worthiness in life! One could argue that "arrogance" and "pride" are the real character defects, not suffering from an illness, physical or mental.
Hardly. It's your bias that draws that conclusion.

It is what it is... corporations use them, governments use them, they exist - get over it. You never know why you didn't get hired... maybe you were outstanding in the psych test, but a reference sewered you, or your interview was less than the next guy, or the big one... in aggregate, the people interviewing around the same time as you, did a little better on this, a little better at that... more experience, education, better cog test, better reference...

I know a few great guys that never got hired here... I know a few doofuses that did... that's just how it goes... but it doesn't lessen the clinical science behind psych evals either... I'm not an expert, but the experts say they are useful tools... whatever.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Dry Guy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:32 am

Another factor is your sex and race, something you have zero control over. So there's no point in feeling bad when it could have been something as simple as what you were born as.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by landsky » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:17 am

So much about nothing... the psych test was a non-event, in fact many in my class were called back to redo it because their answers could not generate an accurate score. They were then told that if their second test wasn't accurate enough that they would then meet with an AC Doctor and do an in person psych evaluation. Some people just don't perform well on these tests and they know it.

My point is, having gone through it recently, it is very clear that the test is not used as a means to "flunk" you or to give them an excuse not to hire you. If they are interviewing you then they want to hire you. If everything else is good and you simply had a bad performance on your psych eval then they will give you every opportunity to get through it, either through another version of the test or an in person meeting with the Doc. So if you are not hired I would suspect it was for reasons other than the psych eval... your interview wasn't the greatest, you were unprofessional, you did not come prepared with the documents they requested, a reference was poorly received or they simply interviewed people around the same time as you that were more qualified.

On mental health. In my short time at Air Canada I've been very impressed with how much this is stressed by both the company and ACPA, and for some of you to use examples in the news is absolutely ridiculous. You are being naive to think the intention of the psych exam is to completely prevent all future mental health problems. There are 4000 pilots at Air Canada and to expect them all to be of perfect mental health at all times is unrealistic... life happens.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by aV1aTOr » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:31 am

landsky wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:17 am
So much about nothing... the psych test was a non-event, in fact many in my class were called back to redo it because their answers could not generate an accurate score. They were then told that if their second test wasn't accurate enough that they would then meet with an AC Doctor and do an in person psych evaluation. Some people just don't perform well on these tests and they know it.

My point is, having gone through it recently, it is very clear that the test is not used as a means to "flunk" you or to give them an excuse not to hire you. If they are interviewing you then they want to hire you. If everything else is good and you simply had a bad performance on your psych eval then they will give you every opportunity to get through it, either through another version of the test or an in person meeting with the Doc. So if you are not hired I would suspect it was for reasons other than the psych eval... your interview wasn't the greatest, you were unprofessional, you did not come prepared with the documents they requested, a reference was poorly received or they simply interviewed people around the same time as you that were more qualified.

On mental health. In my short time at Air Canada I've been very impressed with how much this is stressed by both the company and ACPA, and for some of you to use examples in the news is absolutely ridiculous. You are being naive to think the intention of the psych exam is to completely prevent all future mental health problems. There are 4000 pilots at Air Canada and to expect them all to be of perfect mental health at all times is unrealistic... life happens.

Great post landsky. Especially the last paragraph.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by cloak » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:52 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:47 am
cloak wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:53 pm
Old fella wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm
... In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
Sadly that still seems to be the case in some circles, judging by the comments above who view passing a psych test as a sign of their superior skills and worthiness in life! One could argue that "arrogance" and "pride" are the real character defects, not suffering from an illness, physical or mental.
Hardly. It's your bias that draws that conclusion.

It is what it is... corporations use them, governments use them, they exist - get over it. You never know why you didn't get hired... maybe you were outstanding in the psych test, but a reference sewered you, or your interview was less than the next guy, or the big one... in aggregate, the people interviewing around the same time as you, did a little better on this, a little better at that... more experience, education, better cog test, better reference...

I know a few great guys that never got hired here... I know a few doofuses that did... that's just how it goes... but it doesn't lessen the clinical science behind psych evals either... I'm not an expert, but the experts say they are useful tools... whatever.
I rest my case!
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Soar » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm

Thanks for the insight, but I find that pay hard to believe. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Pay stubs? Before or after tax? I'm assuming before.

Simply put, I need to see evidence of $220-240K/year. Not trying to be a jerk, but again, very hard to believe.
rudder wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am
There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by atphat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:38 pm

Soar wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm
Thanks for the insight, but I find that pay hard to believe. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Pay stubs? Before or after tax? I'm assuming before.

Simply put, I need to see evidence of $220-240K/year. Not trying to be a jerk, but again, very hard to believe.
rudder wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am
There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
New to the workforce? Who quotes salary after tax and deductions?

It doesn’t matter what you find hard to believe. No one is going to post a pay stub on this website ever.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:35 pm

Soar wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm
Thanks for the insight, but I find that pay hard to believe. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Pay stubs? Before or after tax? I'm assuming before.

Simply put, I need to see evidence of $220-240K/year. Not trying to be a jerk, but again, very hard to believe.
rudder wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am
There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.


I know 320 FOs doing $200K, they are the few though... let alone 777 FOs... I know many doing well over $200K before tax.

Just flying your block, 777 FO would be close to $200K... add in training pay, and profit share you're cracking it...

One opportune overseas draft here or there paying over $400/hr gets you more pretty quickly...

YYZ-HKG-YYZ could pay nearly $12,500 for a 3 day trip at 12 year FO rate. Plus a couple hundred+ $ in per diems... do that a few times a year there you go. Or a bit of draft/drop making your regular flying pay 50% more...

Anyway might be hard for you to believe, but it doesn't make it not true... what's your experience or point of reference that you wouldn't believe it?
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