AC New hires please use your WB bid

[Lightchop]

Quit complaining! There's plenty of pilots who were hired at Jazz only ten months after you who've spent an entire year sitting reserve DH8 FO in YUL. Sorry if most here won't shed a tear for you.

Lol. No one has been forced to spend 10 months on reserve in YUL. I know a few in YVR that have been there 6 months or so who are right on the edge of holding a line.

Anyone who was hired 10 months after me can hold dash, Q or even borderline RJ skipper in Montreal right now. Have you seen the latest backfill? Very Jr RJ left seats being handed out like candy.

You mentioned Q and RJ, both fleets which have seen continuous, albeit slow movement. You've never had to sit on the DH8 list, especially out east in YUL and YYZ. There hasn't been a single new hire for this type since June, during which time there has been only one upgrade. There's YUL DH8 FOs who've been on property for almost a year who are still sitting bottom of the list reserve. If they''d been assigned any other type, they would've easily held a block by now.

I often agree with your posts; however, realize there's many, many pilots who've had a far more difficult time at Jazz than you.

I don't disagree with you. You're right, the movement on the classic has slowed. In YVR too. That being said there were people upgrading on it quite fast last year. At one point there was a 4 month on property award for the left seat. That individual was hired around the 10 months after me you mentioned. I have friends who have been here a year and have a shitty sked, I get it. But it's pretty short sighted I think to consider leaving right now especially with AC needing as many people as they claim next year. The movement will start again, and it will stop again. The current slow movement is still better than even 5 or 3 years ago when I was under the impression I'd still be flying 703 until 2020.

Anyways... With the slowing of the classic hiring I'd say that's a sign things might be changing in the near future with that type. Might end up to be good things all around, more Qs or RJs perhaps?

[skypirate88]

For the Jazz guys in waiting, the December PIT was about half full of Jazz hires. The total class size was over 30.

[Dry Guy]

I believe Jazz has it's own forum.

[DH8Pilot]

I don't disagree with you. You're right, the movement on the classic has slowed. In YVR too. That being said there were people upgrading on it quite fast last year. At one point there was a 4 month on property award for the left seat. That individual was hired around the 10 months after me you mentioned. I have friends who have been here a year and have a shitty sked, I get it. But it's pretty short sighted I think to consider leaving right now especially with AC needing as many people as they claim next year. The movement will start again, and it will stop again. The current slow movement is still better than even 5 or 3 years ago when I was under the impression I'd still be flying 703 until 2020.

Anyways... With the slowing of the classic hiring I'd say that's a sign things might be changing in the near future with that type. Might end up to be good things all around, more Qs or RJs perhaps?

I'll keep things short, given this is a non-Jazz section.

Now is definitely not the time to leave, and I'm in no way advocating that. I believe 2019 will be a great time for Jazz pilots, with movement similar to 2017.

I guess what I was trying to say is that there's a vast difference in QOL at Jazz for those hired between late 2016/early 2017 and late 2017/early 2018.

[rudder]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you complain about having to take the upgrade only to get a horrible schedule, realize there's many hired not too too long after you who would kill for the same opportunities.

Not solely Jazz related..... rapid upgrade and DEC opportunities are prevalent across many companies. In most cases it is because many pilots on the property are either passing on the opportunity or unqualified. AC just happens to be offering the most lucrative NB CA opportunity (close to $200k for a year 2-3 CA vs $100-125k at other carriers).

In every case, the quid pro quo is relative juniority on the applicable roster. That probably means lousy vacation intervals, a reserve block, or a fairly unappealing flying block. And that circumstance will likely last for years as more senior pilots fill vacancies on the roster as they become available and their own relative seniority improves.

So for many it is the choice of lifestyle vs $$. However, for those that may not be making a living wage based on their individual circumstances (geographic location/cost of living/size of family/etc) the choice of taking the early upgrade opportunity to increase income may actually be an imperative.

At several CDN carriers, starting wages are an embarrassment. And they last for years after the probationary period has expired. Hopefully that will change.

I do not believe that every pilot has a right to an early upgrade opportunity. But I do believe that the standard of FO pay rates equaling 60-65% of the applicable CA pay rates should apply to every year after probation.

[daedalusx]

Well the major problem at Jazz and other 705, but especially Jazz, is that pilots must take the upgrade because they can't afford the financial distress of a 37k T4 as a FO living in a expensive big city. As a Capt I'd be more than happy that all Jazz Capt take a 10% paycut so that the experienced FO, ATPL holders, would be at least 45-50k (which is what it used to be, btw) - it would attract the better qualified 703/704 pilots who just can't afford to leave their jobs because they have a family to feed and it would promote better mentoring so that the FOs can get a few more years of mentoring before jumping over the left seat.

I also believe that the best way to raise wages all across the board is to emulate the FAAs ATP requirements for 705 crews and not allow a 250hr wonder in the right seat of a 737, RJ or Dash8. Somehow the union doesn't see it that way and want to promote cadet programs and PICUS which as far as I'm concerned, only helps the management ...

As far as the AC flat pay, is it disgraceful that you might be the lowest paid 777 FO in the world ? Probably, but why would it change ? Between, Georgian, Jazz, Sky and now all the pissed off WJers, how is AC ever going to run out of resumes of 3000+ hrs 705 capt/jet/705 candidate ? Also you get the odd Sunwing or Transat guy who thinks the grass is greener on the other side and a few expats who are getting burned out flying 100hr a month in the sandbox, it still is an extremely competitive process and there is absolutely no incentive for AC to raise the bar to find suitable candidates. And for those you thinks AC going ALPA will magically fix everything - well ALPA has great marketing but we've seen the result with the WJ contract - you might want to moderate your expectations...

Also, all BS aside, for all the times I sat in an AC jumpseat, I've never heard anyone say 'oh how I wish I was at WJ, Emirates, Cathay, etc...'

Anyhow best of luck to all in 2019!

[fruitloops]

If you are a newer WB FO and the hiring drys up as you are approaching the end of year 4 of flat pay or are commencing your 5th year at say $145/hr 777 FO pay or $140? 787....and there are no more "NEW' hires for WB FO at that time, the only way you can get bumped out or down in seniority from your position is if someone more senior gets reduced from another type to your position correct?? Any if you've hit a higher pay level and get bumped out of that position you maintain that pay or better elsewhere anyways. So wouldn't a WB FO be taking early dibs on the biggest pay increase available once leaving flat 4yr pay (not including becoming a NB CA of course)

[atphat]

I'm kinda tired of people blaming AC pilots for the low starting pay.

We tried to stop 4 year flat, B-scale LCC, save the pension...

It was voted down by a majority of the membership, and then forced on us by the Ratt and Harper. We all took massive concessions in FOS. Only to have the company turning record profits and a pension in surplus a few years later.

We have been largely outmanoeuvred by the company with government help for years... But it's hardly been with the goal of screwing junior members.

Granted 777 captains did get their formula pay calculations bumped, beyond the rest of our anemic rates, got an extra 5 years on the top of the pile, and perhaps many of them generally vote to protect their pension above all... But there are also many who are just as concerned and disgusted by the losses below them. They still lag their industry peers in pay, perhaps by a slightly smaller margin, but they are behind nonetheless - same as the rest of us in this company, and in this country.

Well said.

[Pullupgoaround]

You know what would fix alot of our problems?Socializing our work schedules... This shitty lifestyle that we have been given if your not in the top 10% on any aircraft is bs. Time to spread the wealth will immediately bring a halt to any +65 greivance...maybe bring on a few retirements.

[Lightchop]

Status pay. Socialized bidding.

[Alcoholism]

You know what would fix alot of our problems?Socializing our work schedules... This shitty lifestyle that we have been given if your not in the top 10% on any aircraft is bs. Time to spread the wealth will immediately bring a halt to any +65 greivance...maybe bring on a few retirements.

You know what would work? Not saying yes to some shitty contract for a 10k buyout.

Status pay. Socialized bidding.

Add in a handjob and you'll be making progress

[altiplano]

You guys knew what it was.

Everyone has a choice here. Money or schedule. There are lots of choices.

Can't handle 15 days at work? Don't like you're schedule?

Bid RP and work 9 days a month.

Wait until you can hold what you want at the seniority you want.

Or bid senior on RSV and pick up some better flying and pass what you don't like... You may take a pay hit if you don't fly out, but it can be worth it for lifestyle.

Everyone has a choice. With the amount of hiring happening and yet to come there are more choices than ever...

Status pay is stupid. All the tops of every position will fill up with the most senior... Like maybe you could have been senior on the 787 or 330, but now the guys that would have bid the 777 are clogging it up... Even if you joined it with socialized bidding you would still take hit on vacation bid, on OT, on other things.

The answer is to improve the wacon incrementally. Not flip the cart because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.

Besides... I want to be senior one day... And I'm totally happy with my schedule today based on the choices I'm making.

[Lightchop]

You guys knew what it was.

Everyone has a choice here. Money or schedule. There are lots of choices.

Can't handle 15 days at work? Don't like you're schedule?

Bid RP and work 9 days a month.

Wait until you can hold what you want at the seniority you want.

Or bid senior on RSV and pick up some better flying and pass what you don't like... You may take a pay hit if you don't fly out, but it can be worth it for lifestyle.

Everyone has a choice. With the amount of hiring happening and yet to come there are more choices than ever...

Status pay is stupid. All the tops of every position will fill up with the most senior... Like maybe you could have been senior on the 787 or 330, but now the guys that would have bid the 777 are clogging it up... Even if you joined it with socialized bidding you would still take hit on vacation bid, on OT, on other things.

The answer is to improve the wacon incrementally. Not flip the cart because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.

Besides... I want to be senior one day... And I'm totally happy with my schedule today based on the choices I'm making.

Status pay seems to work quite nicely in Europe. Personally I'd rather make more of a flat salary over my career and bid narrow body forever vs. feeling forced to fly left seat on a widebody when I'm 62 for the pay.

[atphat]

You guys knew what it was.

Everyone has a choice here. Money or schedule. There are lots of choices.

Can't handle 15 days at work? Don't like you're schedule?

Bid RP and work 9 days a month.

Wait until you can hold what you want at the seniority you want.

Or bid senior on RSV and pick up some better flying and pass what you don't like... You may take a pay hit if you don't fly out, but it can be worth it for lifestyle.

Everyone has a choice. With the amount of hiring happening and yet to come there are more choices than ever...

Status pay is stupid. All the tops of every position will fill up with the most senior... Like maybe you could have been senior on the 787 or 330, but now the guys that would have bid the 777 are clogging it up... Even if you joined it with socialized bidding you would still take hit on vacation bid, on OT, on other things.

The answer is to improve the wacon incrementally. Not flip the cart because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.

Besides... I want to be senior one day... And I'm totally happy with my schedule today based on the choices I'm making.

Status pay seems to work quite nicely in Europe. Personally I'd rather make more of a flat salary over my career and bid narrow body forever vs. feeling forced to fly left seat on a widebody when I'm 62 for the pay.

Awesome. Stay at Jazz.

[Lightchop]

You guys knew what it was.

Everyone has a choice here. Money or schedule. There are lots of choices.

Can't handle 15 days at work? Don't like you're schedule?

Bid RP and work 9 days a month.

Wait until you can hold what you want at the seniority you want.

Or bid senior on RSV and pick up some better flying and pass what you don't like... You may take a pay hit if you don't fly out, but it can be worth it for lifestyle.

Everyone has a choice. With the amount of hiring happening and yet to come there are more choices than ever...

Status pay is stupid. All the tops of every position will fill up with the most senior... Like maybe you could have been senior on the 787 or 330, but now the guys that would have bid the 777 are clogging it up... Even if you joined it with socialized bidding you would still take hit on vacation bid, on OT, on other things.

The answer is to improve the wacon incrementally. Not flip the cart because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.

Besides... I want to be senior one day... And I'm totally happy with my schedule today based on the choices I'm making.

Status pay seems to work quite nicely in Europe. Personally I'd rather make more of a flat salary over my career and bid narrow body forever vs. feeling forced to fly left seat on a widebody when I'm 62 for the pay.

Awesome. Stay at Jazz.

Nah.

[altiplano]

You guys knew what it was.

Everyone has a choice here. Money or schedule. There are lots of choices.

Can't handle 15 days at work? Don't like you're schedule?

Bid RP and work 9 days a month.

Wait until you can hold what you want at the seniority you want.

Or bid senior on RSV and pick up some better flying and pass what you don't like... You may take a pay hit if you don't fly out, but it can be worth it for lifestyle.

Everyone has a choice. With the amount of hiring happening and yet to come there are more choices than ever...

Status pay is stupid. All the tops of every position will fill up with the most senior... Like maybe you could have been senior on the 787 or 330, but now the guys that would have bid the 777 are clogging it up... Even if you joined it with socialized bidding you would still take hit on vacation bid, on OT, on other things.

The answer is to improve the wacon incrementally. Not flip the cart because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.

Besides... I want to be senior one day... And I'm totally happy with my schedule today based on the choices I'm making.

Status pay seems to work quite nicely in Europe. Personally I'd rather make more of a flat salary over my career and bid narrow body forever vs. feeling forced to fly left seat on a widebody when I'm 62 for the pay.

Forced to? You are rarely forced to do anything in this job.

62? Don't plan on being here at 62. If it means I never make it back overseas and have to only work as a NB Captain making only $220K/year for the next 20 years than boohoo for me I guess...

It isn't all status pay in Europe either. And if it is, it is typically WB/NB distinguished.

[av8ts]

You guys knew what it was.

Everyone has a choice here. Money or schedule. There are lots of choices.

Can't handle 15 days at work? Don't like you're schedule?

Bid RP and work 9 days a month.

Wait until you can hold what you want at the seniority you want.

Or bid senior on RSV and pick up some better flying and pass what you don't like... You may take a pay hit if you don't fly out, but it can be worth it for lifestyle.

Everyone has a choice. With the amount of hiring happening and yet to come there are more choices than ever...

Status pay is stupid. All the tops of every position will fill up with the most senior... Like maybe you could have been senior on the 787 or 330, but now the guys that would have bid the 777 are clogging it up... Even if you joined it with socialized bidding you would still take hit on vacation bid, on OT, on other things.

The answer is to improve the wacon incrementally. Not flip the cart because you aren't getting what you think you deserve.

Besides... I want to be senior one day... And I'm totally happy with my schedule today based on the choices I'm making.

Status pay seems to work quite nicely in Europe. Personally I'd rather make more of a flat salary over my career and bid narrow body forever vs. feeling forced to fly left seat on a widebody when I'm 62 for the pay.

Awesome. Stay at Jazz.

What!! Jazz has widebodies ? ?

[atphat]

lol...that's not what I meant.

[Alcoholism]

No one cares what you mean asshat

['97 Tercel]

Say again...you're coming in drunk