In this one instance only, size doesn't matter.thesimplelife wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 2:05 pm
Relative seniority works when you're merging two groups of similar size, not with a 3000+ group with 600. I don't see it happening.
AC offer AT $13 per share
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
So in your opinion a top A330 Captain who's been at AT for 15 years should slot in with 25-30 year pilots at AC? Pilots who were flying before they even had a license?florch wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 2:43 pmIn this one instance only, size doesn't matter.thesimplelife wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 2:05 pm
Relative seniority works when you're merging two groups of similar size, not with a 3000+ group with 600. I don't see it happening.
Yeah... No
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
I didn't invent it and I'm not married to it, but if I was forced to bet, this is where I'd put my money. A top TS Capt has way more than 15 years. The airline is 32 years old. So if there are any 30+ year TS Captains I imagine they deserve fairly high seniority after a merge.
Tell me what you think will happen. Please reference examples of actual mergers from the past to explain your answer.
Tell me what you think will happen. Please reference examples of actual mergers from the past to explain your answer.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
And that's why DOH makes sense.florch wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 2:56 pm I didn't invent it and I'm not married to it, but if I was forced to bet, this is where I'd put my money. A top TS Capt has way more than 15 years. The airline is 32 years old. So if there are any 30+ year TS Captains I imagine they deserve fairly high seniority after a merge.
Tell me what you think will happen. Please reference examples of actual mergers from the past to explain your answer.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
The only thing worse than a company with its headquarters located in Quebec...... One with two headquarters in Quebec.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.
Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Date of hire. It really doesn't get much simpler than that.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.
Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
People made the choice to go to a company with fast upgrades and therefore also took on the risk.
If someone at AT has 25 years of seniority and is a 330 skipper, by all means they should have 25 years and be able to bid the same or similar.
If someone took the Jr upgrade at year 6-10 at AT and slides over to AC it's only fair they hold year 6-10 at AC and whatever that might hold.
Relative seniority doesn't work for a few reasons one of which is there will be some very young and jr pilots slid into the top 1/3 of the list where they will sit pretty for the rest of their lives as everyone around them retires.
Are people saying it's fair to have a 45 year old AT pilot slide into a list at AC where everyone is 55-65? Just because that's where their "relative seniority" was?
I don't.
If someone at AT has 25 years of seniority and is a 330 skipper, by all means they should have 25 years and be able to bid the same or similar.
If someone took the Jr upgrade at year 6-10 at AT and slides over to AC it's only fair they hold year 6-10 at AC and whatever that might hold.
Relative seniority doesn't work for a few reasons one of which is there will be some very young and jr pilots slid into the top 1/3 of the list where they will sit pretty for the rest of their lives as everyone around them retires.
Are people saying it's fair to have a 45 year old AT pilot slide into a list at AC where everyone is 55-65? Just because that's where their "relative seniority" was?
I don't.
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
BOTL since I'll be making more money anywaysgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.
Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
This is why BOTL with pay protection makes the most sense to me. TS pilots get the comfort in knowing their current income won't be hurt. AC pilots get the comfort that their career path won't be hurt. AC can even keep the 4 year flat pay for AC new hires which is a huge cost savings for them. Is it weird that a 30 year A330 Captain is now a NB FO or RP? Yeah but they are still getting paid the same so they may even enjoy it. It could be much worse when your airplane just got sold.Victory wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 amBOTL since I'll be making more money anywaysgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.
Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Really BOTL. Comfort in knowing pay won’t be hurt??? There’s way more to life than pay. Vacation schedule, monthly schedule are just 2 I can think of that that would be horrible going from a senior Capt go a BOTL FODry Guy wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 4:11 amThis is why BOTL with pay protection makes the most sense to me. TS pilots get the comfort in knowing their current income won't be hurt. AC pilots get the comfort that their career path won't be hurt. AC can even keep the 4 year flat pay for AC new hires which is a huge cost savings for them. Is it weird that a 30 year A330 Captain is now a NB FO or RP? Yeah but they are still getting paid the same so they may even enjoy it. It could be much worse when your airplane just got sold.Victory wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 amBOTL since I'll be making more money anywaysgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.
Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Fast upgrades is a combination of circumstances and the same is happening at AC; people didn't choose AT for the fast upgrades.thesimplelife wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 pm People made the choice to go to a company with fast upgrades and therefore also took on the risk.
I am in this situation and I agree with you 100%.If someone took the Jr upgrade at year 6-10 at AT and slides over to AC it's only fair they hold year 6-10 at AC and whatever that might hold.
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
No it didn’t. AC had to buy Transat before Onex did and merged it with WJ. They were a threat to AC and the pilots should be treated as equals
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Some History.
During the AC/CDN merger
The economic state of CDN didn’t matter to the arbitrator. They were bought as a going concern. It was irrelevant.
The pay differences between AC and CDN did not matter to the arbitrator. It was irrelevant.
The rationalizations and justifications posted here are meaningless. You won’t be able to discount the other side based on something the arbitrator views as irrelevant.
The arbitrator will not look at career progression as we know it. He won’t even clearly understand it. The arbitrator won’t even remotely understand why one group thinks they are more deserving than the other. They will view you as equals.
It will never come from an arbitrator. If you stick to your guns on irrelevant points to justify your position you guarantee arbitration.
During the AC/CDN merger
The economic state of CDN didn’t matter to the arbitrator. They were bought as a going concern. It was irrelevant.
The pay differences between AC and CDN did not matter to the arbitrator. It was irrelevant.
The rationalizations and justifications posted here are meaningless. You won’t be able to discount the other side based on something the arbitrator views as irrelevant.
The arbitrator will not look at career progression as we know it. He won’t even clearly understand it. The arbitrator won’t even remotely understand why one group thinks they are more deserving than the other. They will view you as equals.
It will never come from an arbitrator. If you stick to your guns on irrelevant points to justify your position you guarantee arbitration.
Last edited by Fanblade on Sun May 19, 2019 8:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Or, thinking of it another way, their airplane got bought.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Really ? Sounds like the person living in Northern Quebec telling me that the Montreal neighbourhood where I live is full of burka clad women.... I have yet to see one....
Re: AC offer AT $13 per share
Maybe a little far fetched, but 1 500 TT with a bit of Turbine time yes. Some pilots left the AC express brand to go to Transat, the pilots who sticked it out in the regional are going to get shafted now. My point is, Transat hire's with less experience than AC, that is for sure. I doubt doh will go through, but if it does these pilots have just won the lotto.Gilles Hudicourt wrote: ↑Sun May 19, 2019 9:43 amReally ? Sounds like the person living in Northern Quebec telling me that the Montreal neighbourhood where I live is full of burka clad women.... I have yet to see one....