CBC News story / no-fly ban

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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Absolutely they should ban her. Flying is a privilege not a right, Gabor. I would think AC can ban whomever they want to.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by mbav8r »

digits_ wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:19 pm [quote=altiplano post_id=<a href="tel:1080701">1080701</a> time=<a href="tel:1559692721">1559692721</a> user_id=3052]

Of course they have the right to ban her. No company can be expected to do business with a party if they were involved in multiple previous activities that ripped the company off.

Stolen cards get accepted all the time and subsequently revoked after the charge gets reported weeks, even months later.
They should ban the fraudster, not necessarily the customer who bought a valid ticket with her own valid credit card.

I would understand all these replies here if she was the one using stolen credit cards. But she wasn't.

[quote=altiplano post_id=<a href="tel:1080701">1080701</a> time=<a href="tel:1559692721">1559692721</a> user_id=3052]
Yes, goods bought fraudulently and resold are still stolen.
[/quote]

Is that a fact or your opinion? I admit it sounds logical, but legally that isn't always the case.

[quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1080711">1080711</a> time=<a href="tel:1559696900">1559696900</a> user_id=8159]
Access to employee discounts doesn’t scream run away? Maybe she knew, maybe she didn’t how can she prove it, either way if you buy something that is stolen without doing due diligence, you would be charged for possession of stolen goods. I’d be careful if I were her, AC could put pressure on authorities to charge her with fraud, she’ll be needing a different type of lawyer in that case.
[/quote]

"Employee pricing is back on! You pay what we pay!"

Big companies do it, so no, I'm not surprised if people fall for that for airline tickets.

If airlines allow/encourage everyone to sell their tickets, it's on them to take responsibility if fraudlent people resell their tickets. How many legitimate business haven't you seen operating out of a shady shack in some mall or dark alley in busy cities? What's the difference with an app or online sale from a new source?

And once again: she got what she paid for! Literally.
If she got ripped off and never got the tickets after one transaction, then sure, call her stupid, blame her, etc. But she bought tickets 3 times and got to use them. Why wouldn't she buy at a discount store?

The way airline ticketing and pricing is set up, I'm surprised stuff like this doesn't happen more often.
[/quote]
First, it doesn’t say she used a credit card to buy these tickets, the story stated she tried to get her money back, so I’m going to assume she paid by another method. I would think if she used a credit card finding Captain cool would be easier.
Also, if GM says you pay what we pay, I’m going to go to GM and give them my money, not Joe blow offering me a coupon to get the discount.
I can’t speak for other airlines but Air Canada employees are not allowed to sell their tickets, in fact they can bring friends on their employee travel with the stipulation that they travel with them, selling them would at the very least cause a loss of employee travel privileges but possibly loss of employment.
If something seems to good to be true than you should probably do your homework, I am very curious what type of ticket this character was peddling, sounds like he has access to id50s but under who’s profile?
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by Duke Point »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:05 pm Absolutely they should ban her. Flying is a privilege not a right, Gabor. I would think AC can ban whomever they want to.
100%

Air Canada is a private enterprise.

They can, and should be able to ban anyone they choose if flying fraudulently. Fly on someone else.

Stoopid doesn't make one right. Thanks once again to our national broadcaster for painting this with the red "CBC brush".

Many of us are sick of always looking like the bad guy.

DP.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by Blueontop »

If captaincooll was paying for the tickets with a stolen credit card then doesn’t that mean AC isn’t out any money at all? And in fact simply sold the seats at full price?? Perhaps I am missing something?..
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys »

It seems to me there is more to this story that what CBC told us.

If the hairs dont stand up on the back of your neck from wording like "employee discount" or "50% off airline tickets" or the fact you found this "service" on a chat app, then you deserve to get ripped off for the rest of your life because you are the true definition of a sucker. So either shes not telling the whole truth, or shes an unintelligent sucker.
Duke Point wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:10 pm Many of us are sick of always looking like the bad guy.
Yeah CBC needs to @#$! off. That nerd Gabor also needs to @#$! off. I cant stand how quick CBC is to bash AC, its frustrating. And they continue to do it even after being caught about purposefully spinning a negative bias towards AC. No wonder why Trump gains traction playing the "fake news" card when you have shit, sensationalist journalism like that.
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Last edited by pianokeys on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys »

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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ »

pianokeys wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:38 am

If the hairs dont stand up on the back of your neck from wording like "employee discount" or "50% off airline tickets" or the fact you found this "service" on a chat app, then you deserve to get ripped off for the rest of your life because you are the true definition of a sucker. So either shes not telling the whole truth, or shes an unintelligent sucker.

Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ »

Blueontop wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:01 am If captaincooll was paying for the tickets with a stolen credit card then doesn’t that mean AC isn’t out any money at all? And in fact simply sold the seats at full price?? Perhaps I am missing something?..
It is either that or some travelid scheme.

The fraudster mentioned employee discounts, but that could just have been a ruse to justify the low cost of the tickets.

Either way, AC seems to be barking up the wrong tree, and 1.5 years late.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by Ah_yeah »

There is no way to know if she is in on the scam. Terrible reporting as usual. Hard to get sentimental about hearing Con plans to cut off the CBC news. These losers will continue their ways but I don't want to pay for it anymore.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
I would call buying tickets through a shady operation and then subsequently getting in trouble with the airline as being ripped off. If you buy stolen goods and the police come to you and collect them, you got ripped off. Thats how the world works. Are you Ann Qian by chance? You seem to be defending her stupidity.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ »

pianokeys wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:13 pm
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
I would call buying tickets through a shady operation and then subsequently getting in trouble with the airline as being ripped off. If you buy stolen goods and the police come to you and collect them, you got ripped off. Thats how the world works. Are you Ann Qian by chance? You seem to be defending her stupidity.
How can you claim her buying a ticket with her name on to a destination she picked is buying stolen goods?

Also, if I buy a stolen car cheap, the police will make me give the car back, they won't force me to pay retail for the car. That last part is what AC is trying to do.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by plhought »

People are confusing 'stolen' vs. 'fraudulent' credit card.

Stolen = real CC and acxount.

Fraudulent = fake CC number that usually spoofs websites and transaction providers. (Very rare nowadays but prolific years ago)

This was a 'stolen' credit card (and likely one with a very high limit) that was used to purchase tickets in her name. There's a reason why most CC transactions online specify seperate billing addresses. There's nothing stopping someone buying a ticket for someone else. People do it all the time.

AC had no reason to suspect the transaction (likely with a Chinese addressed CC) was fraudulent initially. Chinese CC with different passenger name with random Chinese citizen. Probably happens 5000+ times a day for AC. Mother-in-law buying ticket for Son-in-law to bring him back home to admonish him for whatever etc etc.

Alas, after much of the travel has been completed - CC finally gets reported stolen. Credit card companies or transaction providers (ie: Moneris) will usually go after the company to recoup the false transactions, as a condition of providing said CC transactions to company.

In AC's Res her name is attached to this specific CC number/account. AC is on the hook for 18k to transaction provider or CC company. They ain't gonna let her fly. Whether she likes it or not she is tied to it and they want their coin back. Nothing stops her from chasing after the scammer herself and recouping that coin - well nothing but a completely useless Chinese legal system.

So, tough-cookies - can't fly till some way or another AC gets it coin back.

Alas, this shows you how archaic a lot of CC processing technology and reservation suites are behind the scenes. It can take weeks for a transaction to actually clear - especially between countries. It's not something that happens instantaneously as people imagine.

But, to break it down - Air Canada is not a public service (despite the "government airlines" populism out there). Air travel isn't a right. So - shut up Gabor.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ »

plhought wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:05 pm Alas, after much of the travel has been completed - CC finally gets reported stolen. Credit card companies or transaction providers (ie: Moneris) will usually go after the company to recoup the false transactions, as a condition of providing said CC transactions to company.
Are you sure about that? Isn't the whole point of the 2-3% that credit card providers charge to protect the seller (here AC) from fraud and insolvent users?

That is the way it was explained to me when I signed up to accept credit cards. For chip transactions there was no proof required, for swipes you had to store a signature and for websites the CCV code somehow counted as extra protection. Then again, I luckily never had to deal with fraud.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by plhought »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:39 pm
plhought wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:05 pm Alas, after much of the travel has been completed - CC finally gets reported stolen. Credit card companies or transaction providers (ie: Moneris) will usually go after the company to recoup the false transactions, as a condition of providing said CC transactions to company.
Are you sure about that? Isn't the whole point of the 2-3% that credit card providers charge to protect the seller (here AC) from fraud and insolvent users?

That is the way it was explained to me when I signed up to accept credit cards. For chip transactions there was no proof required, for swipes you had to store a signature and for websites the CCV code somehow counted as extra protection. Then again, I luckily never had to deal with fraud.
Absolutely. I once dealt with Moneris bringing Interac, MC, and Visa to a University PhysEd facility. One of the things is they are very explicit about is if we accept stolen or fraudulent cards - they will come after us.

For example - Big burly Paul Bunyon comes up to me to buy a couple courses and some Pilates. Credit Card name is Elizabeth Regina - I swipe/let him chip & pin it in and bamn. He's in Pilates next week.

3 weeks later Elizabeth disputes charges - CC comes after me because I accepted it.

Happened at least 3 times a month.

The onus is on us to ensure initially transactions are legitimate.

Like I said - the technology to identify fraudulent or stolen activity is very basic and not as advanced as we think.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ »

A payment with a pin is not enough to cover you as the seller??
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by altiplano »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:26 pm
pianokeys wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:13 pm
digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
I would call buying tickets through a shady operation and then subsequently getting in trouble with the airline as being ripped off. If you buy stolen goods and the police come to you and collect them, you got ripped off. Thats how the world works. Are you Ann Qian by chance? You seem to be defending her stupidity.
How can you claim her buying a ticket with her name on to a destination she picked is buying stolen goods?

Also, if I buy a stolen car cheap, the police will make me give the car back, they won't force me to pay retail for the car. That last part is what AC is trying to do.
There is no a car to give back though... it's more like she paid someone down the street from a restaurant she wanted to eat in, went in, sat down, had dinner and drinks, now she is wondering why the restaurant still wants to get paid for the meal she consumed... or like she bounced the check she paid with... either way, she's a party to credit card fraud. Ignorance isn't a defense.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:26 pm How can you claim her buying a ticket with her name on to a destination she picked is buying stolen goods?
Because thats what she did. She bought a service from AC fraudulently. The writing was on the wall and she went for it.

I still dont understand why some people have a hard time grasping that she has responsibility in this. At what point did she think buying tickets on a chat app from a faceless and nameless individual who claimed to have access to employee discounts was a good idea? Any reasonable person would know something is way off. Shes either incredibly stupid, or crying foul because shes been caught. Or maybe both, havent decided yet.

Shes the author of her own misfortune.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by altiplano »

Right?

People don't want to be responsible for their mistakes.

The proper response would be along the lines of:

"I can't believe I fell for this, I made a naive mistake and will work with Air Canada to ensure a proper result and that people are made aware of and don't fall for this grievous scam"

Instead she's like:

"I can't stop crying"

What a pussy.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys »

altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:51 pm "I can't stop crying"
Shes only crying because she was caught.
altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:51 pm What a pussy.
Nailed it.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ »

I'll reply to both quotes at the same time, because the arguments are the same.
pianokeys wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 pm
Because thats what she did. She bought a service from AC fraudulently. The writing was on the wall and she went for it.

I still dont understand why some people have a hard time grasping that she has responsibility in this. At what point did she think buying tickets on a chat app from a faceless and nameless individual who claimed to have access to employee discounts was a good idea?
altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:25 pm
There is no a car to give back though... it's more like she paid someone down the street from a restaurant she wanted to eat in, went in, sat down, had dinner and drinks, now she is wondering why the restaurant still wants to get paid for the meal she consumed... or like she bounced the check she paid with... either way, she's a party to credit card fraud. Ignorance isn't a defense.
Not exactly. It would be like she paid a 3rd party to eat an expensive meal in a restaurant at half price, and the restaurant gives her a voucher with her name on to eat. And that is exactly the business model of Groupon: https://www.groupon.com/

Or is it the 50% off for flight tickets that should have been a give away?
"Cheap Flights Guaranteed | 80% Off Cheapest Tickets | FlightHub.com‎", second result in google when searching for cheap flights.

Is it the booking flights on social media that should have been an obvious sign of fraud?
Facebook is putting out information to developers on how to book flights directly from their platform: https://developers.facebook.com/ads/blo ... -facebook/

Is it employee pricing on airline tickets that is an obvious fraud?
https://www.selloffvacations.com/promo/ ... ricing.asp. Oh my god, it even has a phone number to contact a faceless individual. Fraud or not? I'm actually not sure!

Or maybe you don't like wechat itself? After all, we don't use it in Canada, so it must be a fraudulent app right?
https://walkthechat.com/wechat-travel-i ... e-studies/
Multiple airlines on that list, but pay particular attention to nr 6
"Air France has been the first non-Chinese airline to reply to its customers on WeChat.
[...]
Customers can therefore send queries ranging from seat selection and ticket rebooking to reservation cancellations and excess baggage. The company will try to do it utmost to replay to demands within one hour and come up with a solution within 24 hours. In addition, the chat service is available both in Chinese and English, which is quite convenient for non-Chinese speakers."

So tell me again, which part of the transaction the lady did should have been a dead giveaway?


altiplano wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:25 pm Ignorance isn't a defense.
Actually, that is exactly what it boils down to. I don't know who has the burden of proof in Canada for this (or even if the Canadian law is applicable), but if it can be proven she didn't know it was fraud, she can't be on the hook for the tickets already used.




Technology evolves. You can't blame someone for trying out new technologies, which are being used and promoted by airlines and similar companies. Especially not after having had succesfull results for a bloody year and a half!
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