CBC News story / no-fly ban

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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:39 am

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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:38 am


If the hairs dont stand up on the back of your neck from wording like "employee discount" or "50% off airline tickets" or the fact you found this "service" on a chat app, then you deserve to get ripped off for the rest of your life because you are the true definition of a sucker. So either shes not telling the whole truth, or shes an unintelligent sucker.

Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:18 pm

Blueontop wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:01 am
If captaincooll was paying for the tickets with a stolen credit card then doesn’t that mean AC isn’t out any money at all? And in fact simply sold the seats at full price?? Perhaps I am missing something?..
It is either that or some travelid scheme.

The fraudster mentioned employee discounts, but that could just have been a ruse to justify the low cost of the tickets.

Either way, AC seems to be barking up the wrong tree, and 1.5 years late.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by Ah_yeah » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:54 pm

There is no way to know if she is in on the scam. Terrible reporting as usual. Hard to get sentimental about hearing Con plans to cut off the CBC news. These losers will continue their ways but I don't want to pay for it anymore.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:13 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm
Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
I would call buying tickets through a shady operation and then subsequently getting in trouble with the airline as being ripped off. If you buy stolen goods and the police come to you and collect them, you got ripped off. Thats how the world works. Are you Ann Qian by chance? You seem to be defending her stupidity.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:26 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:13 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm
Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
I would call buying tickets through a shady operation and then subsequently getting in trouble with the airline as being ripped off. If you buy stolen goods and the police come to you and collect them, you got ripped off. Thats how the world works. Are you Ann Qian by chance? You seem to be defending her stupidity.
How can you claim her buying a ticket with her name on to a destination she picked is buying stolen goods?

Also, if I buy a stolen car cheap, the police will make me give the car back, they won't force me to pay retail for the car. That last part is what AC is trying to do.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by plhought » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:05 pm

People are confusing 'stolen' vs. 'fraudulent' credit card.

Stolen = real CC and acxount.

Fraudulent = fake CC number that usually spoofs websites and transaction providers. (Very rare nowadays but prolific years ago)

This was a 'stolen' credit card (and likely one with a very high limit) that was used to purchase tickets in her name. There's a reason why most CC transactions online specify seperate billing addresses. There's nothing stopping someone buying a ticket for someone else. People do it all the time.

AC had no reason to suspect the transaction (likely with a Chinese addressed CC) was fraudulent initially. Chinese CC with different passenger name with random Chinese citizen. Probably happens 5000+ times a day for AC. Mother-in-law buying ticket for Son-in-law to bring him back home to admonish him for whatever etc etc.

Alas, after much of the travel has been completed - CC finally gets reported stolen. Credit card companies or transaction providers (ie: Moneris) will usually go after the company to recoup the false transactions, as a condition of providing said CC transactions to company.

In AC's Res her name is attached to this specific CC number/account. AC is on the hook for 18k to transaction provider or CC company. They ain't gonna let her fly. Whether she likes it or not she is tied to it and they want their coin back. Nothing stops her from chasing after the scammer herself and recouping that coin - well nothing but a completely useless Chinese legal system.

So, tough-cookies - can't fly till some way or another AC gets it coin back.

Alas, this shows you how archaic a lot of CC processing technology and reservation suites are behind the scenes. It can take weeks for a transaction to actually clear - especially between countries. It's not something that happens instantaneously as people imagine.

But, to break it down - Air Canada is not a public service (despite the "government airlines" populism out there). Air travel isn't a right. So - shut up Gabor.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:39 pm

plhought wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:05 pm
Alas, after much of the travel has been completed - CC finally gets reported stolen. Credit card companies or transaction providers (ie: Moneris) will usually go after the company to recoup the false transactions, as a condition of providing said CC transactions to company.
Are you sure about that? Isn't the whole point of the 2-3% that credit card providers charge to protect the seller (here AC) from fraud and insolvent users?

That is the way it was explained to me when I signed up to accept credit cards. For chip transactions there was no proof required, for swipes you had to store a signature and for websites the CCV code somehow counted as extra protection. Then again, I luckily never had to deal with fraud.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by plhought » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:39 pm
plhought wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:05 pm
Alas, after much of the travel has been completed - CC finally gets reported stolen. Credit card companies or transaction providers (ie: Moneris) will usually go after the company to recoup the false transactions, as a condition of providing said CC transactions to company.
Are you sure about that? Isn't the whole point of the 2-3% that credit card providers charge to protect the seller (here AC) from fraud and insolvent users?

That is the way it was explained to me when I signed up to accept credit cards. For chip transactions there was no proof required, for swipes you had to store a signature and for websites the CCV code somehow counted as extra protection. Then again, I luckily never had to deal with fraud.
Absolutely. I once dealt with Moneris bringing Interac, MC, and Visa to a University PhysEd facility. One of the things is they are very explicit about is if we accept stolen or fraudulent cards - they will come after us.

For example - Big burly Paul Bunyon comes up to me to buy a couple courses and some Pilates. Credit Card name is Elizabeth Regina - I swipe/let him chip & pin it in and bamn. He's in Pilates next week.

3 weeks later Elizabeth disputes charges - CC comes after me because I accepted it.

Happened at least 3 times a month.

The onus is on us to ensure initially transactions are legitimate.

Like I said - the technology to identify fraudulent or stolen activity is very basic and not as advanced as we think.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:26 pm

A payment with a pin is not enough to cover you as the seller??
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:25 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:26 pm
pianokeys wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:13 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:15 pm
Once again the lady did not get ripped off. AC somehow seems to think they did, and tries to get the money back from the fraudster's customer, not from the fraudster.
I would call buying tickets through a shady operation and then subsequently getting in trouble with the airline as being ripped off. If you buy stolen goods and the police come to you and collect them, you got ripped off. Thats how the world works. Are you Ann Qian by chance? You seem to be defending her stupidity.
How can you claim her buying a ticket with her name on to a destination she picked is buying stolen goods?

Also, if I buy a stolen car cheap, the police will make me give the car back, they won't force me to pay retail for the car. That last part is what AC is trying to do.
There is no a car to give back though... it's more like she paid someone down the street from a restaurant she wanted to eat in, went in, sat down, had dinner and drinks, now she is wondering why the restaurant still wants to get paid for the meal she consumed... or like she bounced the check she paid with... either way, she's a party to credit card fraud. Ignorance isn't a defense.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:26 pm
How can you claim her buying a ticket with her name on to a destination she picked is buying stolen goods?
Because thats what she did. She bought a service from AC fraudulently. The writing was on the wall and she went for it.

I still dont understand why some people have a hard time grasping that she has responsibility in this. At what point did she think buying tickets on a chat app from a faceless and nameless individual who claimed to have access to employee discounts was a good idea? Any reasonable person would know something is way off. Shes either incredibly stupid, or crying foul because shes been caught. Or maybe both, havent decided yet.

Shes the author of her own misfortune.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by altiplano » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:51 pm

Right?

People don't want to be responsible for their mistakes.

The proper response would be along the lines of:

"I can't believe I fell for this, I made a naive mistake and will work with Air Canada to ensure a proper result and that people are made aware of and don't fall for this grievous scam"

Instead she's like:

"I can't stop crying"

What a pussy.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:56 pm

altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:51 pm
"I can't stop crying"
Shes only crying because she was caught.
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:51 pm
What a pussy.
Nailed it.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:37 am

I'll reply to both quotes at the same time, because the arguments are the same.
pianokeys wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:42 pm

Because thats what she did. She bought a service from AC fraudulently. The writing was on the wall and she went for it.

I still dont understand why some people have a hard time grasping that she has responsibility in this. At what point did she think buying tickets on a chat app from a faceless and nameless individual who claimed to have access to employee discounts was a good idea?
altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:25 pm

There is no a car to give back though... it's more like she paid someone down the street from a restaurant she wanted to eat in, went in, sat down, had dinner and drinks, now she is wondering why the restaurant still wants to get paid for the meal she consumed... or like she bounced the check she paid with... either way, she's a party to credit card fraud. Ignorance isn't a defense.
Not exactly. It would be like she paid a 3rd party to eat an expensive meal in a restaurant at half price, and the restaurant gives her a voucher with her name on to eat. And that is exactly the business model of Groupon: https://www.groupon.com/

Or is it the 50% off for flight tickets that should have been a give away?
"Cheap Flights Guaranteed | 80% Off Cheapest Tickets | FlightHub.com‎", second result in google when searching for cheap flights.

Is it the booking flights on social media that should have been an obvious sign of fraud?
Facebook is putting out information to developers on how to book flights directly from their platform: https://developers.facebook.com/ads/blo ... -facebook/

Is it employee pricing on airline tickets that is an obvious fraud?
https://www.selloffvacations.com/promo/ ... ricing.asp. Oh my god, it even has a phone number to contact a faceless individual. Fraud or not? I'm actually not sure!

Or maybe you don't like wechat itself? After all, we don't use it in Canada, so it must be a fraudulent app right?
https://walkthechat.com/wechat-travel-i ... e-studies/
Multiple airlines on that list, but pay particular attention to nr 6
"Air France has been the first non-Chinese airline to reply to its customers on WeChat.
[...]
Customers can therefore send queries ranging from seat selection and ticket rebooking to reservation cancellations and excess baggage. The company will try to do it utmost to replay to demands within one hour and come up with a solution within 24 hours. In addition, the chat service is available both in Chinese and English, which is quite convenient for non-Chinese speakers."

So tell me again, which part of the transaction the lady did should have been a dead giveaway?


altiplano wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:25 pm
Ignorance isn't a defense.
Actually, that is exactly what it boils down to. I don't know who has the burden of proof in Canada for this (or even if the Canadian law is applicable), but if it can be proven she didn't know it was fraud, she can't be on the hook for the tickets already used.




Technology evolves. You can't blame someone for trying out new technologies, which are being used and promoted by airlines and similar companies. Especially not after having had succesfull results for a bloody year and a half!
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by pianokeys » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am

digits_ wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:37 am

So tell me again, which part of the transaction the lady did should have been a dead giveaway?
Every link you provided are known, trusted, legitimate, and researchable companies. Except number 8 in that WeChat link you sent, I wouldnt trust that, seems fishy.

I think youre grasping for straws here, suggesting someone should steer clear of Sell Of Vacations because it has a "employee pricing event" because of an argument I made is pretty dumb. I, and most of the public, know who they are and can easily research them to ensure validity. But some idiot claiming hot flash sales or whatever at 50% off who has zero credibility, zero researchability, and zero legitimacy is not a good idea. Thats the whole point of my argument, do your research, dont get hosed, look things up, check things out. Seems like you, yourself, could fall for a trap like she did with your logic.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by digits_ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 am

pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am

Every link you provided are known, trusted, legitimate, and researchable companies. Except number 8 in that WeChat link you sent, I wouldnt trust that, seems fishy.
First of all, thank you for actually looking at the links I posted (no sarcasm)!

It doesn't matter if you would trust it, the question is, is it reasonable for someone else to trust it?

We have an app that is actively being used by airlines to get bookings (wechat). We then have a user on that app that claims to be an air canada employee and give 50% discounts. Customer buys something and gets a ticket. How is she to know that this is a fraudlent transaction?
pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am
I think youre grasping for straws here, suggesting someone should steer clear of Sell Of Vacations because it has a "employee pricing event" because of an argument I made is pretty dumb.
Air Canada is the one grasping at straws. I had never heard of Sell of Vacations, I just listed it as an example that even in the airline ticketing industry, companies are advertising employee pricing events, indicating that employees selling tickets for 50% off wouldn't necessarily raise any red flags.

pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am
I, and most of the public, know who they are and can easily research them to ensure validity. But some idiot claiming hot flash sales or whatever at 50% off who has zero credibility, zero researchability, and zero legitimacy is not a good idea. Thats the whole point of my argument, do your research, dont get hosed, look things up, check things out.
Okay, let's say I was the lady, and I would be doing my research.

Start with the basics:
1) Is Air Canada a real airline? Yes
2) Is wechat something trustworthy? Hmm millions of users, probably. And I've been using it for years without problems (sounds a bit like facebook)
3) Can I buy airline tickets on there? I google (or chinese google) a bit and see that Air France and some chinese airlines are selling tickets there, cool.
4) Hmm, a guy is offering discounts, I can either use a guy on wechat or a website that claims to give 80% off. 80% off seems fishy. 50% off with an employee discount event doesn't seem too farfetched. After all I bought a cheap dining table here last month as well
5) Cool he sent me a ticket, glad he's not a scammer
6) Oh the ticket works, must be a good deal, I'll use them again for sure!
pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am
Seems like you, yourself, could fall for a trap like she did with your logic.
That is a possiblity. My point is a big number of people could fall for stints like this. Maybe not with airline tickets, because we all work in aviation, but with other products I could see it happening. We might all be up to snuff on all the new technology, but there will most likely be a day that we won't be. Hell, people are using apps everyday I haven't even heard of. That is why I am giving this lady the benefit of the doubt.

Don't forget, it's the scammer that was stealing credit card information, not the lady.
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Re: CBC News story / no-fly ban

Post by islandguy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:29 am

digits_ wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 am
pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am

Every link you provided are known, trusted, legitimate, and researchable companies. Except number 8 in that WeChat link you sent, I wouldnt trust that, seems fishy.
First of all, thank you for actually looking at the links I posted (no sarcasm)!

It doesn't matter if you would trust it, the question is, is it reasonable for someone else to trust it?

We have an app that is actively being used by airlines to get bookings (wechat). We then have a user on that app that claims to be an air canada employee and give 50% discounts. Customer buys something and gets a ticket. How is she to know that this is a fraudlent transaction?
pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am
I think youre grasping for straws here, suggesting someone should steer clear of Sell Of Vacations because it has a "employee pricing event" because of an argument I made is pretty dumb.
Air Canada is the one grasping at straws. I had never heard of Sell of Vacations, I just listed it as an example that even in the airline ticketing industry, companies are advertising employee pricing events, indicating that employees selling tickets for 50% off wouldn't necessarily raise any red flags.

pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am
I, and most of the public, know who they are and can easily research them to ensure validity. But some idiot claiming hot flash sales or whatever at 50% off who has zero credibility, zero researchability, and zero legitimacy is not a good idea. Thats the whole point of my argument, do your research, dont get hosed, look things up, check things out.
Okay, let's say I was the lady, and I would be doing my research.

Start with the basics:
1) Is Air Canada a real airline? Yes
2) Is wechat something trustworthy? Hmm millions of users, probably. And I've been using it for years without problems (sounds a bit like facebook)
3) Can I buy airline tickets on there? I google (or chinese google) a bit and see that Air France and some chinese airlines are selling tickets there, cool.
4) Hmm, a guy is offering discounts, I can either use a guy on wechat or a website that claims to give 80% off. 80% off seems fishy. 50% off with an employee discount event doesn't seem too farfetched. After all I bought a cheap dining table here last month as well
5) Cool he sent me a ticket, glad he's not a scammer
6) Oh the ticket works, must be a good deal, I'll use them again for sure!
pianokeys wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:42 am
Seems like you, yourself, could fall for a trap like she did with your logic.
That is a possiblity. My point is a big number of people could fall for stints like this. Maybe not with airline tickets, because we all work in aviation, but with other products I could see it happening. We might all be up to snuff on all the new technology, but there will most likely be a day that we won't be. Hell, people are using apps everyday I haven't even heard of. That is why I am giving this lady the benefit of the doubt.

Don't forget, it's the scammer that was stealing credit card information, not the lady.
I'm not going to weigh in one way or another on this one, but I keep seeing WeChat referred to as 'some chat app', which completely ignores the reality of WeChat in China. A few million users? Try over a billion. I get why YOU might not trust Facebook Messenger as a marketplace, but to then extend that logic to WeChat in China betrays an ignorance of how central WeChat is to the Chinese.

Start here, go down the rabbit hole. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/what-is ... g-app.html

Since I know some (many) (most?) (probably all) of you won't bother reading the link, here's a short take.

WeChat Key Statistics
1.08 billion monthly active WeChat users (Q3 2018)
Tencent claim one billion daily active users (Jan 2019)
WeChat the fifth most-used app in the world
45 billion WeChat messages sent on a daily basis over 2018
410 million audio and video calls per day on WeChat
46TB of data consumed on WeChat over one minute of the morning rush hour
WeChat accounts for 34% of total mobile data traffic in China
WeChat market penetration in China at 79%
Around 30% of mobile internet time in China is spent on WeChat
One million WeChat mini programs are used by 600 million people
170 million WeChat mini program users per day
Average user opens four mini programs daily
17 million active ‘official accounts’ as of late 2017
900 million users of WeChat Pay on a monthly basis
Tenpay market penetration at 84% (includes other Tencent payment apps)
820 million users sent or received a Chinese New Year red package over WeChat in 2019
2,000 mini games available on WeChat
300 million players of WeChat mini games
Mini games account for 33% of the top-100 mini programs, with 81% of mini programs users playing a game
Top games played by over 100 million users
WeChat Moments counts 750 million daily users
10 billion hits on WeChat Moments every 24 hours
30 million active users of WeChat at Work, 1.5 million enterprises
83% of WeChat users use the general app for work
Average user had 194 contacts (as of 2016)
250,000 users use WeChat to access bus/metro services every minute during the morning rush hour
Total Tencent revenue at $11.7 billion in Q3 2018; profit at $3.4 billion
Current Tencent market cap around $418 billion (Feb 2019)
47% increase in advertising revenues in Q3 2018, which account for 20% of total revenue
WeChat drove $50 billion into the Chinese economy in 2017
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