Who will bid the A220?

[Gino Under]

I can’t believe you guys still get nav pay!
How’d you pull the wool over management’s eyes? What a totally silly concept in the day of GPS, IRS, and FMS. Not to mention CPDLC, ADS-B out, ACARS, reliable auto-pilots and reasonably qualified RPs. Isn’t it really about sore index fingers? Putting a flight plan you didn’t create or file into the “navigation computer” must be a real challenge. I would have thought nav pay went the way of the dodo bird and FEs.
Night pay? What, so you can actually use your IFR and Night qualifications that get re-validated every 6 months in a simulator paid for by ‘the company’?
Good game for a real professional pilot. I’d say.
Some European carriers actually pay Captains on “medium” jets more than Captains on long haul “heavies”. Seems they realized years ago that takeoffs and landings were the most dangerous part of the flight and decided that the crews doing 4 and 5 sectors a day should be compensated accordingly. Why not offer that idea as a legitimate idea during your next contract negotiations?
Getting paid that extra dosh for scamming the employer over nav pay isn’t going to help deal with the deteriorating manual flying skills either.
Nav pay. Really?

..interesting...

[David Hasselhoff]

When did you get your PFO?

[altiplano]

All the guys with substandard contracts who don't get any premiums think it's ridiculous...

Go tell the Delta and United guys their pay premiums are nonsense while you're at it. Or better yet, do something about your own crappy contract!

[Hangry]

Seriously. The jelly is thick.

[Gino Under]

That’s it?
Childish insults.
Not even one reasonable explanation or grownup answer how “nav pay” is justifiable in this day and age? Not surprised.
Just ‘money for nothing, kicks for free’ I guess.

Where were we? Oh yeah, A220 bid. Carry on.

Gino Under

[MCB]

That’s it?
Childish insults.
Not even one reasonable explanation or grownup answer how “nav pay” is justifiable in this day and age? Not surprised.
Just ‘money for nothing, kicks for free’ I guess.

Where were we? Oh yeah, A220 bid. Carry on.

Gino Under

Based on your monologue above, I don't get your point. Do you think every AC pilot should get a pay cut? What difference does it make? It's part of the compensation package. Would you prefer it was called something else? I wish my rate for every flight was a combination of Night+Overseas+NAV, but unfortunately I'll take what I can get.

I think these rates are much more 'justifiable' than the Swoop and Sky DEC jobs being posted.

We should be striving for more.

[altiplano]

That’s it?
Childish insults.
Not even one reasonable explanation or grownup answer how “nav pay” is justifiable in this day and age? Not surprised.
Just ‘money for nothing, kicks for free’ I guess.

Where were we? Oh yeah, A220 bid. Carry on.

Gino Under

Only one wading in here, tossing insults, and displaying a wide margin of ignorance is you.

It's already been "explained" above - you get what you negotiate and you have no understanding of the history.

As I said, go tell the pilots at the other "grownup" airlines to give back their "unjustified" premiums and see what they tell you - until then go fix your own shitty contract.

[Gino Under]

No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under

[MCB]

No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under

Radiation Pay is something I can get behind. Our CBA is not perfect and I think you'll unfortunately find many who feel like we've been on the losing end in the last few years. I think that's why some of us may be particularly sensitive to hanging on to what may seem to be the small things. I personally believe we currently have much bigger fish to fry within our contract.

I've been at AC for three years and some things in the contract leave me scratching my head. Perdiem only, no crew meals, on flights to Canada, US, and Mexico. I can fly a 13 hour turn to PVR with no food provided, but a three hour flight out of HAV provides hot breakfast and lunch based on departure times.

Makes me shrug, but there are other more pressing issues I hope our negotiating committees are working on.

[altiplano]

No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under

Radiation Pay is something I can get behind. Our CBA is not perfect and I think you'll unfortunately find many who feel like we've been on the losing end in the last few years. I think that's why some of us may be particularly sensitive to hanging on to what may seem to be the small things. I personally believe we currently have much bigger fish to fry within our contract.

I've been at AC for three years and some things in the contract leave me scratching my head. Perdiem only, no crew meals, on flights to Canada, US, and Mexico. I can fly a 13 hour turn to PVR with no food provided, but a three hour flight out of HAV provides hot breakfast and lunch based on departure times.

Makes me shrug, but there are other more pressing issues I hope our negotiating committees are working on.

That's a good idea, I'd go for radiation pay for anything North of 60, or above FL380.

The p/d's on Domestic/Transborder flying are an improvement. I'd rather get paid than get a meal I may/may not like/eat so I bought/brought my own anyway... Besides if I didn't bring anything and I need something I'll get a galley meal anyway... safety of flight requires pilot nourishment.

[Gino Under]

I have to say this (in a similar vane) I can't believe there are ANY flights you operate that you don’t get provided a meal or sandwich tray. If you operate through any meal period you should be fed. When I flew, crew meals were always provided. Our F/As regularly came into the flight deck not only to see if we were still alive but to at least offer us ‘something’. It certainly is a safety issue.
Pilots generally have historically under sold their worth and when you look at the airline history in Canada from 1975 through to the present, it’s been a real sh*t show.

Gino

[altiplano]

Domestic early starts we always get a breakfast, and as I said, if I want one, I can always get a meal or snack... but I prefer getting paid vs. the old system of not being paid when flying through meal times.

[sanjet]

Domestic early starts we always get a breakfast, and as I said, if I want one, I can always get a meal or snack... but I prefer getting paid vs. the old system of not being paid when flying through meal times.

+1

Give me the per diems anytime over meals so I can buy quality meals or groceries to pack myself.

[GRK2]

No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under

NAV pay: When there were actually real Navigators on such aircraft as the North Stars, Super Connies etc, there was a pay rate. Then they dumped them for IRS nav, (the old Carousel IRS had a data base of 9 waypoints! What is the base today anyway? Thousands?) They earned their pay to be sure those navigators. Nowadays Gino refers to "Nav pay" as if was a disease, but what happens when things start to fail, such as onboard systems, or satellite based problems occur? There are many many long range flights that require PBN or multiple levels of RNP (Both lateral and vertical) to navigate 100 of miles from a suitable diversion airport. Can you maintain the operation or do you divert? Continue? Where to go? How? So I imagine it still is "Nav pay" although "nav" rarely fails. The way most professional pilots earn their keep is not for what they do every day, it's for what they know how to do when shit starts to go wrong. I vote to keep the name! It's a knowledge bank I would prefer a crew to have on those dark crappy nights when no one really wants to think about "what could possibly go wrong?"

[Duke Point]

Gino is an AC troll. He has been for years. Air Canada history spans over 80 years. His airline's history could likely be counted on two hands, and maybe a foot. Needless to say he's paid differently.

He has also been around long enough to know full well that "Formula Pay" has been around since the dawn of the jet age, and AC was around long before that. The said "formula" is based on many factors, certainly some now redundant, but they certainly weren't in 1960. Pay is pay......who really cares how its derived. Honestly. WTF.

Don't feed the troll. He's obviously bored somewhere abroad, trying to get a rise out of you guys.

His milk was soured somehow by AC long ago, hence the anamosity.

DP.

[Gino Under]

Duke
Boo hoo. You hurt my feelings. Boo hoo hoo
Where's my comfort pony??

GRK2
You raise some excellent points which certainly bear value. Thanks for keeping it civil.

Gino Under